Design & discussion

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Does the identity guesser have to guess the full role (like weak cop/vanilla town) or just their alignment (town/scum)?
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Initial impression is that the game is a little scum favored. The neutral role is slightly pro town as they're incentivised to make accurate read, but using them to win for town is still not their goal.

I'm playing a bit with how likely a mylo vs lylo is. There are a few possible ways the "balance" is broken with jailing, weak cop and double kill.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
If town are unlucky enough that the weak cop dies early they only have three mislynches till mylo assuming no stopped night kills. At mylo there's a reasonable chance they decide to no-lynch which puts them at a hard to win lylo because they either have to hit the double kill scum at the very end or manage to stop a night kill.

I'm thinking making the cop regular, removing the double kill scum or adding one or two vanilla townies.

My view is that while town can potentially stop a night kill, the double kill is something they almost have to fight against. The chance the double kill going to be lynched last is quite low.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
If you put a gun to my head and asked me to make a balancing change I'd add two vanilla townies and make it a 19 player game.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Subjective opinions:
  • I like that there's a weak cop instead of a hider. We've seen a few hiders and getting that result is kinda nice with a neutral.
  • I'm a fan of gossips in general so of course I like that neighborizer.
  • While it does limit their use (I can see most using the shots quite early) the exception to mylo/lylo is in my opinion the right choice for the silencer.
  • Vanillaiser is an interesting twist on the standard roleblocker.
  • Identity guesser is a cool neutral role. It gives them a true goal to work for and is a decent challenge.
 

Franconp

Frank
Hi Ty and Nin!!!!

Thanks both of you for reviewing the game.

There are some special features that aren't listed in the spreadsheet:

- This is a costume game. The game will run here (OuterMafia) and all the players will have their name changed. I already talked with Retro about this and he said that this was doable.

- The players will be asigned a character of any media (I still don't know which ones, so if you have any suggestion is welcomed) and that will be their username and their avatar here.

- All the player's are forbidden to share their true identity in the game (they will be warned about this before the game start) or sharing if they found out who someone else is.

- Scum won't also know the identity of their partners.

- The identity of the player will be shared after they have died.

- I was planning to make a poll at the end of the game in the specs thread where everyone could vote for the best roleplayer.

Does the identity guesser have to guess the full role (like weak cop/vanilla town) or just their alignment (town/scum)?

The guesser has to guess the actual name of the player. There will be in the initial post 2 lists: one with the actual players names and one with the names that they will be using in the game. They have to guess who is who in the game before some team guess. He will have better chances the longer he stays in the game.

If you put a gun to my head and asked me to make a balancing change I'd add two vanilla townies and make it a 19 player game.

I can add two more vanillas or maybe one vanilla and a backup cop with a couple of shots.
 

Franconp

Frank
I'm thinking making the cop regular, removing the double kill scum or adding one or two vanilla townies.

Or I can change the double kill. I added it because I thought I made scum too weak. I can make him a x-shot ninja (to counter the motion detector) or a x-shot strong (to counter the jailer) or a mix between them. But I'm not sure if it's too much as scum already have the vanillaiser to deal with them.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Or I can change the double kill. I added it because I thought I made scum too weak. I can make him a x-shot ninja (to counter the motion detector) or a x-shot strong (to counter the jailer) or a mix between them. But I'm not sure if it's too much as scum already have the vanillaiser to deal with them.
Ya. From how I see it in a vacuum 13:4 is a little scum favored, but not much, then you have the neutral making it 12:4:1.

Something like a two shot ninja maybe fits. It's not that powerful against a motion detector, but scum already has a pseudo blocker, silencer and aren't fighting a stacked town.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
As an example to the above look at love boat. It is 15 player with 3 scum, first game had a neutral and second didn't.

That makes LB1 11:3:1 and LB2 12:3

The guesser has to guess the actual name of the player. There will be in the initial post 2 lists: one with the actual players names and one with the names that they will be using in the game. They have to guess who is who in the game before some team guess. He will have better chances the longer he stays in the game.
Ahhhh, that makes much more sense lol

If they're lucky it might not be that hard to figure some people out, but 3 still seems like the right amount. If the game lasts 6 phases and neutral stays alive for that long it means they have to be 50% right.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
- All the player's are forbidden to share their true identity in the game (they will be warned about this before the game start) or sharing if they found out who someone else is.
Just a comment here:
The neutral can end up knowing some players' identity so make sure it is clearly written in their role PM and night action result PM that they are strictly forbidden from sharing the identity of other players. I'd make it broad and say that they're also not allowed to share something like "Dorian isn't Sorian" either. Basically banning them from sharing anything about their results.

We've had neutrals playing weirdly in the past :P

-----------------------

Another related thing is maybe think about how people may approach forbidden identity speculation/claiming like "I think Dorian is Sorian" or "you know who I am" and how that should be dealt with.

We haven't played a costume game so there's a chance a few people may misunderstand the rule.
 

Franconp

Frank
Ya. From how I see it in a vacuum 13:4 is a little scum favored, but not much, then you have the neutral making it 12:4:1.

Something like a two shot ninja maybe fits. It's not that powerful against a motion detector, but scum already has a pseudo blocker, silencer and aren't fighting a stacked town.

I can add 2 more townies (both ordinaries or 1 ordinary and 1 role), keep the double kill but nerf it a little with some condition: In Arkham the double kill happened if a partner was killed, if the player with the double kill died before the double kill was lost (and it ended up happening like that). I can do something similar here. And I can change the goon to another role (as the ninja maybe).

That would make the game 14:4:1.

If I add 2 more townies should I add another shot to the vanillaiser and the silencer?

Just a comment here:
The neutral can end up knowing some players' identity so make sure it is clearly written in their role PM and night action result PM that they are strictly forbidden from sharing the identity of other players. I'd make it broad and say that they're also not allowed to share something like "Dorian isn't Sorian" either. Basically banning them from sharing anything about their results.

We've had neutrals playing weirdly in the past :P

-----------------------

Another related thing is maybe think about how people may approach forbidden identity speculation/claiming like "I think Dorian is Sorian" or "you know who I am" and how that should be dealt with.

We haven't played a costume game so there's a chance a few people may misunderstand the rule.

I was planning to add to the rules (in a big bolded red) that if someone post his identity will be replaced. Scum sharing their identity in the scum chat will be modkilled as if I replace them it's kinda obvious that they are scum. I could do the same with the neutral and get him modkilled if he shares his results.

Speculation is a little more difficult. Maybe a warning the first couple of times and a modkill the third time they do it? Is it too harsh?
 

Franconp

Frank
A quick look at the 14:4:1 scenario gives me as the worst town result:

start 14:04:01
d1 scum double kill lynch 14:03:01
n1 double kill + weak cop target scum and dies 11:03:01 neutral guess
d2 town lynch 10:03:01
n2 kill 09:03:01 neutral guess
d3 town lynch 08:03:01
n3 kill 07:03 neutral guess and out of the game
d4 town lynch 06:03
n4 kill 05:03
d5 town lynch 04:03
n5 kill 03:03 game over and scum win.
 

Franconp

Frank
New idea for the double kill (yes, I'm kinda bored at work): What if I make him KINDA an arsonist. He must choose a target to plant a bomb into (I'm thinking about limiting the time he has to choose his target, maybe until d3 start). If he dies his target dies also. That way if he dies before selecting a target he lose his shot. If his target is lynched before he dies he lose his shot also. If they need to nightkill him (because his target is actually the jailer or the cop) they lose their shot. Also it would force them to protect him during the day as it's on their best interest that he isn't lynched so they don't lose a shot.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Speculation is a little more difficult. Maybe a warning the first couple of times and a modkill the third time they do it? Is it too harsh?
That seems fine. I said it mostly so it's in your head and you're better prepared if it happens in the game. I played in a costume game where all identity discussion was banned and players didn't flip their identity and there we still had some slight discussion just outside the rules with some posting "I think I know who you are". In that game the players self-moderated enough iirc (it was reaaaally big too).

*Reading the other stuff now*
 

Franconp

Frank
That seems fine. I said it mostly so it's in your head and you're better prepared if it happens in the game. I played in a costume game where all identity discussion was banned and players didn't flip their identity and there we still had some slight discussion just outside the rules with some posting "I think I know who you are". In that game the players self-moderated enough iirc (it was reaaaally big too).

*Reading the other stuff now*

I think that saying "I think I know who you are" is fine if they don't share a name. If they say "I think you are X" is where a warning should be used. Or "I don't think you are X" also.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
New idea for the double kill (yes, I'm kinda bored at work): What if I make him KINDA an arsonist. He must choose a target to plant a bomb into (I'm thinking about limiting the time he has to choose his target, maybe until d3 start). If he dies his target dies also. That way if he dies before selecting a target he lose his shot. If his target is lynched before he dies he lose his shot also. If they need to nightkill him (because his target is actually the jailer or the cop) they lose their shot. Also it would force them to protect him during the day as it's on their best interest that he isn't lynched so they don't lose a shot.
I feel like this still has the issue of an unwinnable lylo for town if they lynch the "wrong" scum.

With an extra two townies though maybe if you want that double kill mechanic.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
I think that saying "I think I know who you are" is fine if they don't share a name. If they say "I think you are X" is where a warning should be used. Or "I don't think you are X" also.
Yeah. Maybe also a premature warning if it spreads a bit. Like a general heads up "speculating players' identity is not allowed" being posted.
 

Franconp

Frank
I feel like this still has the issue of an unwinnable lylo for town if they lynch the "wrong" scum.

With an extra two townies though maybe if you want that double kill mechanic.

I'm not tied to the double kill mechanic and can change it for another role. I wanted to give scum an extra kill as I thought that they were underpowered against town roles. But yes, both killing roles can be problematic in lylo.

I can give town the 2 extra townies and change the goon and the double killer to some other role to give scum some more power.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Sorry for dropping out a bit. I was thinking and didn't get to posting.

I was thinking right now of replacing the double kill with a one shot strongmen. It came about thinking over how scum would fare if the cop was lucky/good and got three clears by D4 and claims. That's really a best case scenario for town, but if town is able to capitalize and figure out there isn't a godfather they now have 4 cleared players if we presume none of his targets died and include the cop. Scum now really needs to kill him as the claimed cop is going to announce who he's going to target at night and it would be really bad if they hit him while the jailor protected him. On the other hand if they do nothing the cop can clear more people and lock the game for town with enough cleared townies.

As I write that up though, lots of things have to go wrong for scum. If we assume zero scum lynched then there's a 64% chance the weak cop is dead at the start of D4 (the change of the cop hitting town/neutral on N1, N2 and N3 is just 36%). The cop can be saved by a jailor, but then he hasn't got as many clears.

That situation is also bad, but not unwinnable. With all four alive on D4 scum is just two mislynches from winning straight up and have three uncleared townies plus they can be lucky and get two extra kills (cop kills himself and identity guesser leaves game) which pretty much means they probably just need one extra mislynch.

Another possible role is a scum role cop. That's a less direct tool against the cop and will probably result in a lot fewer power roles surviving.

The way I see it if scum team is small, let's say just two remaining at D4, then there's a 50% chance they don't have the strongman needed to kill the cop. A role cop though could've given them a few town roles unless they were lynched D1. Kinda a convoluted way to say I think a strongman would be a bigger buff to a big scum team should we hit this situation with a cop claim while the role cop can be more helpful to a scum team that has lost some members.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Strongman, strongmen. My keyboard kinda likes to do its own thing and small typos are easy to miss
 

Franconp

Frank
. Scum now really needs to kill him as the claimed cop is going to announce who he's going to target at night and it would be really bad if they hit him while the jailor protected him

But it's a jailer, so if he decided to protect the weak cop then he can't perform his action. Also the weak cop can be vanillaised. He won't get a result that he was targeted and changed roles that night so he can have false positives is scum is lucky.

Another possible role is a scum role cop.

I don't think scum need a cop role. There aren't many roles in play for a scum role cop to be useful. A strongman could be against the jailer except that the jailer has a weakness of his own in his role. I'm leaning to add a x-shot ninja. Not much because of the motion detector, as that is a really weak investigative role, but to give them a little hint that there is someone out there that could get info about night actions and they must be careful.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
But it's a jailer, so if he decided to protect the weak cop then he can't perform his action. Also the weak cop can be vanillaised. He won't get a result that he was targeted and changed roles that night so he can have false positives is scum is lucky.
Let's put ourselves in scum's shoes:
Cop has claimed and there's presumably a projector alive. It's risky to attack the cop because they don't know what protector it is.
Let's say scum chooses not to attack the cop and jailor jails cop. Maybe best case scenario as scum now pretty much knows of jailor and can maybe deduce they can't protect the cop the next night.
Let's do the same except scum attacks cop. While the cop doesn't get a result they're in a tougher spot having lost a night kill. They also know of the jailor, but they've lost a night kill and are probably wary of trying to attack the cop again.
Finally we have scum not targeting cop and jailor targeting someone else. Worst of both worlds as jailor can protect someone else (possibly scum or nk target) and cop gets a result.

My main caveat is without a strongman scum find themselves in a very uncomfortable position because they either target cop risking hitting a very likely protection or they target someone else risking cop clearing more players.

------------------

I'm viewing this sightly biased because a jailor/cop situation royally screwed up scum in Sorian's championship final game. Not in a "this is super op", but in a "this can be really powerful" way and recognizing that the uncertainty regarding nk had a big impact.

The game was semi open, basically as power roles claimed you could figure out what the remaining roles were and mafia by virtue of knowing their own roles knew what town had.
The game was 13:4 (17 players) and the roles were a town odd night cop, town jailor, mafia strongman and mafia watcher.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/3255-Season-3-Final-Game-The-Koopa-Troop
Link to game, use thread marks to find day start and ends.
D1 ended with a town lynch, but N1 the cop was lucky to find scum and claimed the next day. That scum was also the strongman so scum entered the night with a claimed cop and no strongman. Instead of aiming for the cop (who can't do anything on even nights) they figured jailor would protect the cop and instead aim for the strongest townie who was leading town (and would end up being voted best player). The jailor however figured they would do something like that and also jailed that strong townie. The next day scum managed to lose a second scum to the lynch and now we arrive at N3. Scum is in a tough spot because the cop is able to use their check tonight, but the jailor is able to protect them too. Scum end up targeting a vanilla townie and again jailor was able to anticipate this and the cop is free to use their check and was able to hit scum. Town was able to lock the game mechanically and scum ended up conceding. The jailor was Sorian btw ;)

Different setup and there was a strongman here who just happened to die early. My point though is the uncertainty plays a big part because either result is bad for scum. Jailor is also a pretty powerful role for town because they can block a kill two ways so I feel like scum should have a counter.

Regarding the vanillaiser: the downside is that it's a delayed action and if they use it on N4 the cop can still get a result, the cop will just be vanilla on N5.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
I don't think scum need a cop role. There aren't many roles in play for a scum role cop to be useful. A strongman could be against the jailer except that the jailer has a weakness of his own in his role. I'm leaning to add a x-shot ninja. Not much because of the motion detector, as that is a really weak investigative role, but to give them a little hint that there is someone out there that could get info about night actions and they must be careful.
Ya, it's probably too blunt of a tool and could give us a game where a powerful scum completely overruns town because they know all the roles.

---------------
Remember the the jailing has a lot of pros too. You can jail the scum doing the kill stopping it, you can jail the cop targeting a scum saving him, you can jail the scum the cop is targeting again saving the cop.

Because there are two people the jailor can target at night to stop the kill (killer and target) they have double the change of stopping the night kill compared to a doctor.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Also the weak cop can be vanillaised. He won't get a result that he was targeted and changed roles that night so he can have false positives is scum is lucky.
I think that is bastard because you're not giving correct results. The game doesn't really need godfathers or millers with a nerfed cop.

He's a cop so he should get a "result" back. If he's vanillaised either "action failed" hinting he was changed or "no result" similar to a standard roleblock.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
I'm not super rigid on anything though and going hard on looking at this from scum POV.

The weak modifier makes the cop a lot weaker by itself and the silencer role is quite powerful and can nudge scum away from early scum lynches.

I've also looked at the cop from the most optimistic outcome possible. Even if he says alive he is very likely to hit a townie who's later killed or lynched or be stopped by the jailor. Even with the most positive outcome it's hard to make a game which is mechanically locked for town. The neutral also kinda makes this a 16 player game which helps scum a lot.


Mechanically locked:
This isn't a term we use a lot. Basically it means a game that one side can't win. The example I've used in this game is basically one where every town remaining is a confirmed townie. This being a closed setup it can never be 100% locked so I'm imagining a team that is able to deduce there's no godfather and cop isn't lying etc.
 

Franconp

Frank
Jailor is also a pretty powerful role for town because they can block a kill two ways so I feel like scum should have a counter.

How about I make the double kill a JOAT and give him 2 strong shots and 2 ninja shots with a condition that he can't use the same kind of shot twice in a row. The downside is that if the player is killed early they lose a strong member but that's something they should be able to deal with.

I think that is bastard because you're not giving correct results. The game doesn't really need godfathers or millers with a nerfed cop.

He's a cop so he should get a "result" back. If he's vanillaised either "action failed" hinting he was changed or "no result" similar to a standard roleblock.

Yes, I didn't thought about it much. "No result" would be better.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
How about I make the double kill a JOAT and give him 2 strong shots and 2 ninja shots with a condition that he can't use the same kind of shot twice in a row. The downside is that if the player is killed early they lose a strong member but that's something they should be able to deal with.
Would you like to avoid a strongman or do you like the idea of a ninja?

I don't wanna phrase it like I'm a know it all, I'm new to balancing games :P
I also feel like it's your game so I shouldn't force roles upon you.

I am thinking about it. I started reading a bit on mafiascum and noticed a warning about having a jailor and tracker on the same team because both get very powerful in the late game as they can be used to look for the sole remaining scum. My initial thought was to split the role and make one two shot strongman and one two shot ninja (so no mafia goon), but that's kinda a half fix as there's a 50% chance the last scum is neither.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
I'm also thinking about adding one or two townies. From what I can see a fairly standard 13:4 game with good town PRs is reasonably balanced, but there's a neutral who can leave the game quickly, a silencer robbing town of votes and a weak cop who's likely to die.
 

Franconp

Frank
Would you like to avoid a strongman or do you like the idea of a ninja?

I wanted to give scum a way to counter town PRs.

I am thinking about it. I started reading a bit on mafiascum and noticed a warning about having a jailor and tracker on the same team because both get very powerful in the late game as they can be used to look for the sole remaining scum. My initial thought was to split the role and make one two shot strongman and one two shot ninja (so no mafia goon), but that's kinda a half fix as there's a 50% chance the last scum is neither.

A Tracker is more powerful than a motion detector as the motion detector can't know if the player did an action or an action was performed on his target and by whom. But I think scum should have a way to counter the role. I gave a single scum both of the shots because I'm thinking I may give another role to the other scum.

I'm also thinking about adding one or two townies. From what I can see a fairly standard 13:4 game with good town PRs is reasonably balanced, but there's a neutral who can leave the game quickly, a silencer robbing town of votes and a weak cop who's likely to die.

I was planning to add a couple more townies to the original game design. Right now the game is 14:4:1. My doubt now would be if I make both of them ordinary town or I make 1 ordinary and the other one a PR. And if I make one of them a PR what role is town missing? This would also change what I do with the scum team: if I make both of them townies I can split the JOAT shots between the 2 remaining scum. If I make one of them a PR I could leave the JOAT as it is and give scum a role to counter the new PR.
 

Android Sophia

Miss Congeniality
FYI I've been a little bit busy helping get Buck Bumble mafia going, so I'm only now going over the game. I'll let you know what I think in a bit, although at first glance it looks pretty solid.
 

Android Sophia

Miss Congeniality
The vanilaiser is kind of a weaker role cop/strongman for the scum already. Hm.

I think I agree with adding one or two more town bodies to the game.
 

Franconp

Frank
Hi Sophia and thanks for reviewing the game.

The vanilaiser is kind of a weaker role cop/strongman for the scum already. Hm.

I though it was like a roleblock. Why are you saying that is lik a role cop/strongman?

I think I agree with adding one or two more town bodies to the game.

Did you checked V2 or the original design? There are 2 sheets. In V2 I added 2 new townies but I'm having doubts with them, if I should give them a role or make them vanilla. And if I gave them a role (either to both of them or to one) what is town missing?
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
We haven't had a vanilliser in a game before so I think it's good to make sure we agree on its function.
Using the mafiascum wiki as a base:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vanillaiser

From the wiki we can see it:
A) Is used by the player to target someone.
B) The next night that target is vanilla and can't use their power if they have any. Unlike a roleblock passive abilities like commuter are also affected if they were hit when not commuting.
C) The target may or may not be told that their power has been disabled.

So it's like a roleblock, but its ability is delayed by one night and (if it hits of course) it disabled passive abilities.
 

Ty4on

The 4 is silent
The vanilaiser is kind of a weaker role cop/strongman for the scum already. Hm.

I think I agree with adding one or two more town bodies to the game.
You're right about this. A combination vanillaiser and role cop is very powerful in that it can neutralize town PRs quickly.

I disagree a bit with the strongman comparison though because of the delay and the jailor also protects against it.
 

Franconp

Frank
We haven't had a vanilliser in a game before so I think it's good to make sure we agree on its function.
Using the mafiascum wiki as a base:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vanillaiser

From the wiki we can see it:
A) Is used by the player to target someone.
B) The next night that target is vanilla and can't use their power if they have any. Unlike a roleblock passive abilities like commuter are also affected if they were hit when not commuting.
C) The target may or may not be told that their power has been disabled.

So it's like a roleblock, but its ability is delayed by one night and (if it hits of course) it disabled passive abilities.

There was one in Just Mafia. The idea was to use it like a roleblock but also being able to target some thing that a roleblock is unable. Like the neighborizer.

If the Vanillaiser hit the Neighborizer he can't invite noone the next night and the chat will be closed. If he hit someone who is in the chat he won't be able to participate the next night. He could also prevent the Commuter to move the odd night if he is targeted a even night.

Also the target will know only if they used a power that night. Something like: "You were unable to use your power tonight". But only in that case.

Dammit, didn't think about it being permanent lol

It's not permanent. It's too op that way.
 
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Ty4on

The 4 is silent
Ok, I'm playing with a setup in my mind.
Mostly the same, but:
-Jailor replaced with doctor who cannot self target or target the same consecutively
-Mafia JOAT replaced with two-shot strongman

I'm trying to think about avoiding a scenario with one scum left and an investigator alive. With a Jailor and Motion detector there's double the change one will survive to late game.

Town feels a bit strong. The cop will probably take a mafia with them assuming they play decently and Mafia will lose the powerful vote steal come lylo. I'm playing with adding a town sleepwalker who can mess up motion detector results or possibly bringing back some sort of mafia double kill, but not sure.
 

Roytheone

Basically a violent balloon covered in feathers
Ok, looking over it, I honestly think it is pretty well balanced already. Love the neutral idea, I am always a fan of neutrals that have to side with the team that is currently losing to extend the game as long as possible. Free on the fly balancing!

One thing I am wondering though: how would replacing work? You have a list with all real player names in the op, correct? But if a replacement comes in, they will be added to that list and it will most likely be painfully obvious what the fake name is they take over.
 

Franconp

Frank
Ok, looking over it, I honestly think it is pretty well balanced already. Love the neutral idea, I am always a fan of neutrals that have to side with the team that is currently losing to extend the game as long as possible. Free on the fly balancing!

One thing I am wondering though: how would replacing work? You have a list with all real player names in the op, correct? But if a replacement comes in, they will be added to that list and it will most likely be painfully obvious what the fake name is they take over.

Good point. Haven't thought of that. 2 options:

1) no replacement. If a player has to drop is a modkill.

2) I could add the replacement list in the op and select one at random from there. Just tell them that one of the players from the replacement list has been selected. That way they won't know who is the player that is joining the game. Before I can start the game it will need at least 5 replacements just in case.

Leaning towards 2 but if I can't get replacements 1 is the back up plan.

Also I know that I'm missing 2 roles and I can't think of anything that would be interesting. I have some ideas but they are definitely not good for this game. Will look more into it when Heroes vs Villains ends (hopelly soon).
 
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