Spectator Thread The Beehive
- Thread starter Nomad Sparkster
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Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
Splinter just saved his own life at the last second. Modchat was flipping out, lol.
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
Delayed kill, basically. Gets around the bodyguard, and allows scum to get multiple kills at once.
Sawneeks
little green dog
SPLINTS WAS GIVING ME A HEART ATTACK OVER HERE. he almost signed his own death and then last second saved it. like holy shit talk about calling it real close.
But the disavdantages are bigger it seems? There is also a (dead) counter to the arsonist, right? You need to leave more town around for at least one day phase. And what just happened of course.
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
Yeah. The drawbacks are pretty huge if your arsonist goes down before you ignite, as you basically lose all those nights you didn't kill.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
:thinking_face:
Lone_Prodigy
Am I at 10 posts yet?
Oh wow look at all these players around at day end.
Sawneeks
little green dog
Having been Scum before with a Delayed Kill at our disposal the urge to completely confuse and fuck over Town is very strong.
Also if Terra had lived they could have scored two kills tonight instead of just one. It would have demoralized Town.
turmoil7
Imperial Corps Commander Who Cheers the Army
so is scum going to kill Splinter or FB
If the two remaining scumplayers are goons, FB is almost vanilla unless there is another town PR he can clear(vig?), but I don't see it
With so few PRs left splinter is powerful if he gets a positive[\spoiler]
If the two remaining scumplayers are goons, FB is almost vanilla unless there is another town PR he can clear(vig?), but I don't see it
With so few PRs left splinter is powerful if he gets a positive[\spoiler]
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
We need to practise self-defense and daring to step out and defend those you think are town.
Especially the latter can make a big difference and stop bad lynches. That was the thing that bothered me with Terra D1, I felt like he would know if Geno was just his regular self and defend him from a lynch.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Jumping votes around is the towniest thing in existence <3
(I haven't read the day end stuff yet -_-)
I think I got that after you flipped :')
But actually I was talking about how he went so in on lynching Fire after he claimed cop. I was thinking he could be scum who wouldn't mind taking one for the team if it got the cop lynched. But after thinking about it for a hot minute I'm probably reading him more as a misguided townie?
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
I wouldn't say misguided.
We can focus down on scum; your main goal is not to be caught. Why would you ever play around with votes like that? If you do it to save a teammate that's really risky.
As town it's not quite that simple. You may just do it for the heck of it, but it's also a great tool in reading others and getting some movements. Obvs this case was really risky, but with this scum lynch we have a bit more info.
As for my own there were two things. I was kinda frustrated at the lack of progress so I wanted something out of the day and a tie forces people to choose a side. I also had Geno's vote at the back of my head and was like "no fucking way" when he actually came and made that self-defense vote. Right there I felt like we had a scum.
Talking about Geno's vote. Obviously as town you should try to defend yourself and not to be mislynched, but, and a very important but, you should never pull moves like that IMO. If Geno had moved the vote to Kalor and Kalor was town, what would D2 have been? Geno Geno Geno Geno Geno. Unless we somehow manage to end up town-reading Geno he has now wasted an entire day on his inevitable mislynch. When Geno flipped I still felt kinda good knowing that town wouldn't have to deal with that.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
And a big point is that in general town plays a much more risky game and will do stuff like that.
The most effective play for Mafia is to play a more cautious game unless they're imitating a playstyle.
An individual townie death isn't as big of a deal as an individual mafia death, and a townie usually deals better with pressure so they're not as afraid of catching some.
The most effective play for Mafia is to play a more cautious game unless they're imitating a playstyle.
An individual townie death isn't as big of a deal as an individual mafia death, and a townie usually deals better with pressure so they're not as afraid of catching some.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
This is something I'm really bad at, but if you take notes it can be worth it to look back at reads.
Say X does something you find really suspicious, but you remembered an old town read. Go back and read it, that can really help you either re-evaluate.
That game with Ouro is one where this really burned me. I was able to get a pretty strong town read on Sophia and Crimson, but eventually started tunneling hard on them. They were still town.
When I say town-read I mean something that's quite strong. Let's isolate on Faddy in this game. If he's scum that's some amazing fucking play, and on top of being hyped as fuck he's still getting votes so whatever he is doing isn't working. That's a very general overview kinda thing, but we can look a bit more in-depth and see some movement in his thoughts. *Splinter here is the one I noticed the most. First he town reads him D1, then he starts to get a bit more suspicious, then over D2 and D3 he regains trust in him. He's uncertain, his read is going through his head and he is changing his mind. Obviously a good scum can do an ok job faking this, but usually their reads are quite static and very much in text without a whole lot underneath the surface. I suck at this, but the good players will go through their thoughts and try to put themselves into their position to see how well them emphasize with them. For me it mostly comes when I see a post that I can really connect with and get their thought process. I'm not reading their reads, I'm jumping into their head and following the train of thought.
That turned into a town read ramble lol
I write a lot, but I'm not a particularly good player. I'm eyeing practise because I'm really bad at making reads and can get stuck in this no man's land kinda like D1 this game where I didn't have any strong reads and especially no strong scum reads.
Even wrong reads can be good. They help you learn.
Say X does something you find really suspicious, but you remembered an old town read. Go back and read it, that can really help you either re-evaluate.
That game with Ouro is one where this really burned me. I was able to get a pretty strong town read on Sophia and Crimson, but eventually started tunneling hard on them. They were still town.
When I say town-read I mean something that's quite strong. Let's isolate on Faddy in this game. If he's scum that's some amazing fucking play, and on top of being hyped as fuck he's still getting votes so whatever he is doing isn't working. That's a very general overview kinda thing, but we can look a bit more in-depth and see some movement in his thoughts. *Splinter here is the one I noticed the most. First he town reads him D1, then he starts to get a bit more suspicious, then over D2 and D3 he regains trust in him. He's uncertain, his read is going through his head and he is changing his mind. Obviously a good scum can do an ok job faking this, but usually their reads are quite static and very much in text without a whole lot underneath the surface. I suck at this, but the good players will go through their thoughts and try to put themselves into their position to see how well them emphasize with them. For me it mostly comes when I see a post that I can really connect with and get their thought process. I'm not reading their reads, I'm jumping into their head and following the train of thought.
That turned into a town read ramble lol
I write a lot, but I'm not a particularly good player. I'm eyeing practise because I'm really bad at making reads and can get stuck in this no man's land kinda like D1 this game where I didn't have any strong reads and especially no strong scum reads.
Even wrong reads can be good. They help you learn.
turmoil7
Imperial Corps Commander Who Cheers the Army
I totally forgot about the haiku user
I'm leaning towards it being a survivor neutral rather than scum
Haiku curses that do nothing but hindrance the receiver do not add meaningful power to scum, and makes more scumplayers move at night/have a role other than vanilla
I'm leaning towards it being a survivor neutral rather than scum
Haiku curses that do nothing but hindrance the receiver do not add meaningful power to scum, and makes more scumplayers move at night/have a role other than vanilla
Wow, thank you so much for typing this up! It was super interesting and I definitely learned something. I hadn't considered that scum would have trouble developing reads but it makes a lot of sense, as does the being more careful with votes.
Sawneeks
little green dog
Something I've noticed a lot too is we get a lot of hindsight bias when it comes to Spec Thread commentating on games. There's been a lot of people, myself included, that say how easy Scum is to see from here when in reality we would just be as lost and confused in the main thread.
That's something that really messed me up in Buffy and is one of the few things I want to try and improve on next time. Confidence in reads, Town or Scum, is difficult when you're supposed to look at the game with an apprehensive eye. Our Scum are typically very good at blending in and appearing Townie but part of me wonders if Townies played more, well, Townie we would be able to circumvent this issue. I've noticed we tend to get caught up on the littlest things that turn out to be nothing.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Yeah. You see from a spoiled perspective that there are clear ticks from scum, but it's the challenge of getting that right.
It's kinda easy to also tunnel on a townie and think "oh well, they were scummy" when they flip. Obviously if they have three posts total it's hard to tell either way, but a mislynch should hurt and get some self-reflection.
In my experience lynching scum is hard too. If a lynch is easy that's a bad sign and not necessarily because their teammates are fighting against it. Not sure if you recognize the feeling where you're maybe even voting for them, but still unsure even though they flip mafia. On the other hand you probably remember dozens of mislynches where you were soooo sure they were scum.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Switching tracks is something that helps me too.
I have an issue where a player can get all of my attention as I try to read them and it's pointless because I'm not getting anywhere. I try to solve that by looking elsewhere and just leaving that read on hold.
Unrelated, but thinking of mafia reads I think there's sorta an ideal that there is this one big clue when in reality it's much more a combination of factors. Like take something as simple as being distant and disengaged; you have to prove a negative which is not trivial and pretty much impossible from a single post.
I have an issue where a player can get all of my attention as I try to read them and it's pointless because I'm not getting anywhere. I try to solve that by looking elsewhere and just leaving that read on hold.
Unrelated, but thinking of mafia reads I think there's sorta an ideal that there is this one big clue when in reality it's much more a combination of factors. Like take something as simple as being distant and disengaged; you have to prove a negative which is not trivial and pretty much impossible from a single post.
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
Next time I play a game I am definitely gonna try this town circle concept in execution.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
inb4 you finally roll mafia :P
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
Fun fact: The one time I was going to sub in and become Mafia, circumstances came up and prevented me from subbing in.
The world literally does not want me to be Mafia.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
Yeah but I want to challenge myself. Plus I think I could play an utterly amazing scum game now.
Franconp
Frank
I actually find more fun and less stressful being mafia.
Maybe because I had really great team partners.
Nice try scumneeks >:c
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
Scum made the right choice to kill. The game would have been potentially over had they killed anyone else.
Fireblend
ABLF
I wonder.
Sawneeks
little green dog
My Town Circle is dead before it even starts. ; _ ;
Fireblend
ABLF
Post Restrictor
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
He did indeed forget to send the command in...
Sawneeks
little green dog
No no no, it's a High Level Scum tactic. Town is gonna eat it up for sure...
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Better than lying about it
turmoil7
Imperial Corps Commander Who Cheers the Army
it checks out
Looking at how Kalor acted yesterday, I think he's dropped a lot from my scum list. But that was some seriously scummy looking play in the beginning >:
Rn I think the last two scum are DC and Zipped. I really don't like the late vote and Zipped's posts just seem so weird to me. His one about DC and the Faddy vote looks really wrong especially.
Rn I think the last two scum are DC and Zipped. I really don't like the late vote and Zipped's posts just seem so weird to me. His one about DC and the Faddy vote looks really wrong especially.
Yeah. Scum wouldn't bring up Terra the way he did. I tunneled pretty hard against him, but the evidence kept piling up, haha.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Faddy would never tunnel on a pretty much confirmed townie
I don't know what you're talking about
Yup. Pure insanity.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Use the normal NK
Who would use an arsonist?
He's got kinda a point in that I would never use the arsonist as scum
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
The way it was set up was scum would get the NK + any doused kills when they ignited.
I wonder why FEP just said Zipped or DC were good choices and then voted OJ? Pressure vote?
Also when was Kalor green checked? Most people are reading him as town but nothing's been put down as definite iirc. Also, I don't think Splinter can red check anyone in mylo :/ He's just a motion detector.
Also when was Kalor green checked? Most people are reading him as town but nothing's been put down as definite iirc. Also, I don't think Splinter can red check anyone in mylo :/ He's just a motion detector.
Lone_Prodigy
Am I at 10 posts yet?
I liked it better when Faddy was posting in haikus.
How can Faddy really believe scum didn't try to kill or douse someone N2? Town protective roles were dead, there is no reason at all to do this. The only way Splinter could've been scum was if getting doused didn't warn the player and he was faking it while another player got targeted N2, but with terra's flip we know that's impossible.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Oh, so it is an extra kill. That makes more sense.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
He thinks a role cop and tracker in the same game doesn't make sense from a game design perspective. Therefore the circumstances don't make a big impact to his thinking.
The loss of a kill is explained by it being a big gamble.
Android Sophia
Miss Congeniality
Also bypasses the bodyguard entirely, in a sense.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Wait, that's not an extra kill lol
It takes two nights to set up though. In that time you can kill the bodyguard and your target.
It's the same reasoning that led LP's lynch. So weird for him to ignore that in favor of a game design argument this far into the game.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
It's a bit of a tunnel too :P
I'm thinking maybe FEP could be a partner to either DC or Zipped? He says he thinks both are scummy, but won't vote for either and tries to start a train on OJ.
I'm also not really getting what about the D1 votes means that Zipped and DC can't be partners either. I'm assuming wagons being pure is referring to no scum being on them? DC had a vote and got rid of it last second to prevent a tie, he would have ended the day on a wagon otherwise. I can't remember what happened with Coolest's vote but I really need to get back to writing this paper so I'm not going to dig it up :( Anyways, the reasoning on them not being scummates is pretty weak and I think FEP might only be so insistent that they aren't working together because he knows that he himself is the real partner to one of them.
I'm also not really getting what about the D1 votes means that Zipped and DC can't be partners either. I'm assuming wagons being pure is referring to no scum being on them? DC had a vote and got rid of it last second to prevent a tie, he would have ended the day on a wagon otherwise. I can't remember what happened with Coolest's vote but I really need to get back to writing this paper so I'm not going to dig it up :( Anyways, the reasoning on them not being scummates is pretty weak and I think FEP might only be so insistent that they aren't working together because he knows that he himself is the real partner to one of them.
Sawneeks
little green dog
Thing is, it's not a Tracker. It's a Motion Detector. A Motion Detector is far weaker than a Tracker is and totally makes sense to be together in a game. You can't really clear anyone with that since you don't know if a positive result is them moving or someone moving to them.
Faddy's logic here just doesn't make sense. If it was just the argument of 2 detective PRs then I'd get it but having to jump through hoops to explain the lack of kill + douse makes everything fall apart.
Like I thought Splinter's tunnel on Fireblend was nuts but this is going a lot farther.
Oh, definitely. And yeah. They probably lost the game by letting Terra get lynched.
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Ty4on
The 4 is silent
That hasn't stopped town before
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
Hey, my town read is all D1 too
Done. My bad.
Ty4on
The 4 is silent
D1 is pretty damning for the two too. Look at how awkwardly both of them enter the conversation about Terra.
feps with the IT IS ABSOLUTELY THIS IT CANNOT BE ANYTHING ELSE IF YOU THINK IT'S SOMETHING ELSE YOU'RE CRAZY got me shaking my head over here.
eta: though I wonder if feps is trying to draw a kill so he can sign up for the other games
cabot
Why.
My vanilla cop was considered normal on mafiascum wiki.
That was intentional, the vanilla cop was reasonably powerful because it could green check a lot potentially, but I didn't want a red check being possible outside the public one-shot.
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Ty4on
The 4 is silent
He has to be turboed with sign ups ending soon.eta: though I wonder if feps is trying to draw a kill so he can sign up for the other games
:lolfeps with the IT IS ABSOLUTELY THIS IT CANNOT BE ANYTHING ELSE IF YOU THINK IT'S SOMETHING ELSE YOU'RE CRAZY got me shaking my head over here.
eta: though I wonder if feps is trying to draw a kill so he can sign up for the other games
There are still many slots open in both games. He has time :P
There's an echo in that tunnel.