THE MONSTERS

Discussion in 'Maple Street Design Thread' started by heymonkey, Apr 2, 2018.

  1. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Smaller game, 13-16 players, based loosely on the old Twilight Zone episode THE MONSTERS ARE DUE ON MAPLE STREET.
     
  2. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    some early sketches
    only two scum to start?
    potential partner 1: if any point they get x number of votes without being lynched, they become scum
    one potential who is actively recruitable?

    one vig with a special condition - first time they have a vote off-wagon, that person dies in the twilight phase
     
  3. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    working on sheet
     
  4. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    WE NEED A MAP!!!
     
  5. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    map draft
    will probably move the park to oak street

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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  7. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    it's perfect
    clear it
    i gotta fix the map
    (I also need to look at the sheet again because even I forgot lolololol)
    BUT I'M SURE IT'S PERFECT
     
  8. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I removed a townie, but maybe shouldn't have - but it's pretty role heavy in general.
     
  9. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    I'm going to need a through explanation of the map mechanic, and the role sheet needs to be cleaned out to reflect said map mechanics.
     
  10. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I've never designed a map game before so you're gonna have to clarify what you mean and how you want it to look. Or perhaps better - I found Monopoly a little hard to read, so is there one you recommend I model from?

    I will assign people homes (that'll go in the sheet) to start.
     
  11. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    From what I saw in the sheet, only 3 roles are related to the map. One of those mention a "space between houses", so how will the movement work?

    Where do players start at the beginning of the game? When can they move from one place to another, every night? When they do move, do they go straight to the desired place, or do they need to go past every "map plot" between them and their destination? If they do need to go past them you'll need to design routes, so we can know how they go from A to B.

    Beyond that, what is the purpose of the park/pond/the special spots that aren't just houses on the map? Are the streets relevant to the mechanics or are they there for flavor?

    ---

    I think Danganronpa Mafia is close to what you are trying to do here; there, each player had their own room but they could walk during the night and visit different places.
     
  12. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Now that I'm not logged in to a different account I'll be back to work on this later in the week.
     
  13. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    I'll refrain from making further comments till the map mechanic is ready for review.
     
  14. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Yes, from that I've heard, Danganronpa would be the closest match to what I'm thinking. Do you think I could see the sheet? I think it will help me decide if I need the map mechanic, and how to best proceed if I don't. I'm much more married to the idea of this game and how it could be realized than to the map idea, but I think it could work if I knew more about map games.
     
  15. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    The only one I've seen personally go down is Monopoly and that's pretty different from what I envision.
     
  16. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    I don't have the design sheet anymore, lost to time, but here's the game thread (neogaf) which shows the map and says how it works, and the role PMs.
     
  17. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Bless you. I didn't think to look back at that sheet for the role pms; I'm smacking my forehead like a dumb.
     
  18. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    What is the status here?
     
  19. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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  20. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    the status is I've been too busy playing mafia to design mafia :( I won't have a chance to work on it until late in the month so if y'all are needed, you can shelve it but I will pull it out in the fullness of time.
     
  21. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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  22. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I've never done a recruitable thing before so I may have ENTIRELY botched the balance there. I'm happy to change it for something else but I'd rather keep it if I can. I figure if I change it I drop a townie or two and move to just three mafia.
     
  23. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Not super happy with the recruitable ninja/tracker - they won't balance because tracker will run out of shots so will probably change those two. Researching now.
     
  24. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    If anything, I think mafia could be stronger. There's a small chance the game ends on D1 as town lynches one scummie and the twilight vig auto-shoots another.

    Maybe make 3 original scum/1 recruitable instead of 2/2? Or make one of the recruitable roles automatically be part of the Mafia once all the scummies are dead, sort of like a backup role.
     
  25. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I made adjustments to several roles. Feeling better about it overall now. Mafia starts with 3 now and the child is adjusted. Looks a little more balanced to my eye.
     
  26. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    Questions/observations:

    Are the neighbors informed about each others alignment? Important question since Sarah can change allegiance apparently.

    Can I get some specific examples of how Hypnotist works? The TOS link does not really help much in the context of this game.

    Town seems to have multiple information roles (Insomniac, Voyeur, 2-shot cop) At least insomniac and Voyeur are pretty weak.

    What happens if Voyeur's target is investigated by cop AND the recruiter-checker?

    What happens if Cop checks recruitable before they are recruited?

    I don't like unpopular. I would change them to Goon or Loved.
     
  27. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    I want to hear more detailed explanation on Hypnotist on this game, but as it is it sounds like it would turn this game into Bastard status by itself.
     
  28. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I'll just go in order--
    1. No, they aren't, hence not masons.

    2. The examples in the ToS link are what made me like this role. I was considering whether or not to:
    -give the person who gets the role a pool from which they must choose (each one one use)
    -give them some examples and then let them do whatever
    But like the false report of a poisoning is really cool - "you ere poisoned! You will die tomorrow," or a false report of a roleblock, etc. or a false alignment check - that could be sending someone a report, like Player X (the hypnotist) messages Player Y and says, "you receive a report in the night that Player Z is mafia." In the right hands, this could be a really fun role, or really powerful, or could just fall flat. Will depend on the RNG.

    3. The hypnotist is meant to interact in a way with the informational roles to muddy the waters, so there's information flying around but no one really knows what to trust - which is in theme for the source material.

    4. I defer to advice there - would I just report "was investigated" or would I report "was investigated by multiple sources?"

    5. They show as town prior to recruitment.

    6. Why? If mafia manages to recruit, they become pretty strong for a small game. I feel like this returns the balance. Most of the town power roles aren't actually particularly powerful, though if one needs to be knocked down for balance, I could remove the doctor and change them to a 1-shot bulletproof.
     
  29. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    It's not bastard because that information isn't guaranteed to be true. Players will receive a message from the moderator, not knowing why, that they can decide if it's true or not.

    It's different than a Cop receiving an information and believing it to be true according to its PM when it's actually false.
     
  30. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    To me, it should only receive the types of actions, not the number of actions, so "was investigated"
     
  31. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    It's mostly my preference. That said, I have a question on the unpopular - Does the one vote less only work in majority-vote situations, or is the power in play in other situations too? For example, at the EOD vote situation is 5-4, with 4 votes on unpopular, would that turn the vote into a tie? Or would the other person with 5 votes be lynched?
     
  32. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    I think Pedro's assesment on the voyeur is fine - it can simply be "was investigated" does not need to say target was investigated by multiples.
     
  33. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    WORST CASE SCENARIOS:

    Scum Win WCS:

    D1 Starts - 16
    D1 Ends - 14 (Mislynch where beloved dies, vig shoots, sarah is recruited), 4/14 scum.
    D2 Starts - 12, (Essentially two night phases in row, counted as D2 for scenario purposes)
    D2 Ends - 11
    D3 Starts - 10
    D3 Ends - 9
    D4 Starts - 8

    Scum wins.

    Town Win WCS:
    D1 Starts - 16, 3 scum
    D1 Ends - 14, 1 scum (town lynched scum, vig shoots scum)
    D2 Starts - 13
    D2 Ends- 12, 0 scum (town lynches scum)
     
  34. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    I think it's better to give hypnotist a pool of 1-shot hyposis messages to send rather than give them free reign. Stuff like "you are poisoned!" messages could be potentially unfun.
     
  35. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    It would be a tie, yes, and I would wriggle with evil delight as the players tried to figure it out, since hated variants are not much used here.

    Thanks, I agree, but wasn't sure.

    Honestly, I highly doubt the d2 scenario would ever happen for us but I would actually find it delightful.
     
  36. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I do too, really. While I like the best-case idea of someone coming up with good ones, I think most players would just be stumped. Maybe I'll give them one blank they can fill in if they clear it with me.
     
  37. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    Not sure what the point of the beloved child role is.
     
  38. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    In the episode they almost kill a child and there’s a sense that would be a true point of no return. If I’m using this theme, that’s an essential role.
     
  39. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    Never ever design a game with flavor in mind first, game mechanics second.

    What does the role accomplish in terms of game balance? There is no downside to the child reveqling their role asap now.
     
  40. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Mmm. For me, the best moments in any game are when the flavor aligns with the game's mechanics, so I find designing with flavor in mind very important. It's been a centerpiece of the two games I've already finished, too.

    Here, I think having it as a beloved rather than innocent child introduces doubt. The player can claim, but just as with SkyOdin's role in Pineapple Pizza mafia, there will be people who don't believe it and think they need to kill the player to test it, especially the longer they live after a claim. I want this game to be about doubt. There are a lot of roles and a lot of actions for players to take, but they don't all give perfect information, so the game will showcase - I hope - that idea of sifting through knowledge to figure out what to trust. This role reflects that.
     
  41. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    There's no reason to say "never think of flavor first", that's something that's said since Crab was around but to me it's just a different way of approaching game design and both ways can produce good games.
    And at the end of the day, games with great flavor tend to be more entertaining and memorable than games without it.

    With the amount of PRs in town, the beloved's there to weaken it a little.
     
  42. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Just as an FYI, starting Monday I'm gonna be pretty busy again with work stuff, and will have less time here, so if it's at all possible to get some things resolved before then, it'll probably be better. If I need to make major changes, this weekend would be ideal.
     
  43. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    @heymonkey I'll need that pool of actions hypnotist can do next.
     
  44. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I'll prep it tonight during D&D. I figure I'll write... 10-12? So the hypnotist has some options but there's enough to cover each day?
     
  45. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I added ten possibilities to the sheet, on the bottom. What do you think?
     
  46. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    "Someone tried to recruit you last night."

    The recruit mechanic is something that only Mafia knows about; why would they let Town be aware of it by sending this message?

    ---

    "You were roleblocked last night."
    "You received a bulletproof vest but someone also shot you, so you are not bulletproof."
    "You received a posting modifier last night: if you post fewer than 20 times, you will die at EoD."
    "You were poisoned and will die in the next night unless a doctor visits you."

    These all make the game bastard to me. It's one thing to send dubious information to the players, it's another to make them think there are mechanics in place when they are not. This game doesn't have a Roleblocker, BP giver, Poisoner, etc.
    It does have a Cop, a Doctor, and someone that investigates movement so the other messages are okay in this aspect.
    The "2 members remaining" and the "don't vote for X" messages don't hint at any specific role so I'm cool with both.

    The Hypnotist would work for me if it only sent messages about things that could actually happen in the game.
     
  47. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    I think the Doublevoter should lose its power near endgame. I don't particularly think a Town Doublevoter is extremely dangerous around that time, but if it were a Mafia Doublevoter it wouldn't be able to doublevote then or else it would totally break the game.
    Because of that, if a Doublevoter still can vote twice in mylo/lylo, it's indirectly a confirmation that the role is not trying to harm town, and that ends up green checking its player.
     
  48. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    On the other hand, I would not like if the Hypnotist had false messages for every single PR in the game, since that would be telling Mafia which roles are in effect. So I don't know, maybe any additional messages could be more generic, maybe it could have fewer than 10 messages.
     
  49. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I agree on the doublevote being lost later.

    I like this discussion on the hypnotist. I like leaving be recruitment to give the mafia the choice of whether or not they want to introduce the suspicion. I structured the BP in that way because it essentially has no effect - except to foster concern. The player doesn’t think they are BP, which is definitely bastard. Just thinks that they were heavily targeted.

    I can remove the poison one but again, I do like paranoia. That should be the foundation of this game. So I will try to create some additional lines that help foster that sense.
     
  50. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Oh, with the roleblocker - if I leave that and it gets used, it certainly could lead to some weird reveals and talks in thread, especially if it went to a PR who did use their stuff. Imagine if it went to the doctor who had saved someone and there was no kill! Low odds but still.

    But I’m also cool with taking that one out.
     
  51. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    Explicitly mentioning such roles in the design when they are not there *is* bastard, though. They could be rewritten more vaguely instead, like "You almost died today" instead of mentioning a BP vest.
     
  52. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Oh, gotcha. Okay. So just vague ‘em up a little. Can do.
     
  53. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    I've adjusted - how are those?
     
  54. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    Immediately better :3 (i do think that one about post modifier should go :P) I'll wait to see what grizz has to say about them
     
  55. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    I think the post modifier one needs to go. Others look good.
     
  56. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    K, I will kill it. What’s next?
     
  57. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    I'm okay with the design right now, just need to see the role PMs
     
  58. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    I'm mostly fine with the design, but I'd suggest a slight change to the twilight vig: Make it that if the twilight vig is voting the person who received the 2nd most votes of that day (ties also count), they shoot that person. I think that the twilight vig shooting in any scenario where they are not in the leading lynch would make their role bit too frustrating to play.
     
  59. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Wait, I both think I like that and am not sure I understand so could you break it down a little? If I'm following you, I'm into it but I want to make sure.
     
  60. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    Oh, speaking of it: the Beloved's description says "when killed by town", that doesn't mean the vig shot would trigger its power, right? Since the twilight phase isn't technically Day or Night. When it's time for the PMs, a clearer way would be to say "when lynched".
     
  61. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    So like, at the end of day, we have three lynch trains:

    Player A received 5 votes
    Player B received 4 Votes
    Player C received 3 Votes (is not Sarah)

    If Vig voted player A, nothing happens, player A is normally lynched
    If Vig voted player B, Vig shoots Player B (1-shot power still)
    If Vig voted player C, nothing happens

    So this adds a tactical element to Vig's role - Vig can decide more effectively when they want to shoot, instead of a possibly frustrating scenario where they ALWAYS have to be on the leading lynch, if they don't want to use their shot.
     
  62. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    This is a good question too. I think beloved should only trigger if they are actually lynched, not shot by vigi.
     
  63. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Yes, I like both of these. I will make those adjustments.
     
  64. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    I'll wait to see the edits appear on doc.
     
  65. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Welp, that’ll be a few hours cause I’m mobile atm.
     
  66. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    it's ok, there isn't massive hurry.
     
  67. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    once those edits are done, I can give ok to the design I think.
     
  68. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Adjustments are made and I will start PMs tonight.
     
  69. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    PMs are on sheet 2. Please don't make me add all the code for the color and shit. D: I prefer to do it with the WYSIWYG interface when I send the PMs. I'll send y'all a sample if you need to make sure I know what to bold/highlight.

    (I'm bolding a few now)
     
  70. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
    Staff Member

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    Things I noticed:

    • The text in which the mafia chat will go is missing
    • Mafia needs some fake claims since everyone is named
    • Mafia has the wrong win condition
    • The PMs should say whether commands can be used during the Night or during the Day
    • The sample PM for the OP is missing. Since everyone is named, the sample PM should be a character from the episode too, if there's one available
    • It should be specified that the doublevoter should use the command in the public thread, not via pm to you
    • I'd rename the "Nosy Neighbor" to "Nosy SomethingElse", since there's already a Neighbor role, to avoid confusion and friendly fire between townies
    • The Beloved's PM should be changed from "lynched by the town" to just "lynched"
    • From our discord chat, about the recruitable roles
      • Pedro - 07/10/2018
        (they have to be unaware, right, otherwise they can play kingmaker in the end and choose whether they want to win as mafia or town)
        hey_monkey - 07/10/2018
        yeah
      Sarah shouldn't know she can become mafia, her PM should be just like the other neighbor's
     
  71. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    You can’t see me smacking my forehead, but I did. I forgot. Also lol st the mafia win conditions. I will make these dumb changes first.

    Will fix the rest too. Man, I botched these lol
     
  72. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Okay. Only one was missing night specification, fixed. Fixed the PMs. There are no more names from the episode (there weren't enough to fill this) so I'll make a new one. I hate the practice of giving mafia fake claims but whatever, they can be Fred and Betty (the other one has a name). Will write the sample PM now and add it to the end.
     
  73. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Sample PM is in. I think that's everything?
     
  74. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    The Recruiter has a slightly different win con than the others scummies, but yeah after that, that's it. I trust you with the formatting stuff so I'm not worried by it
     
  75. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Did I phrase it differently? I'll fix it. What else, bosses?
     
  76. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    Oh, I meant to fix that already but maybe I didn't paste. They all have the same wincon now.
     
  77. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    [​IMG]
     
  78. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
    Staff Member

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    (by me at least)
     
  79. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    woooo

    I might write opening flavor soonish - but it'll be at least eight months until this is close to being run so I'm not super fussed about it.
     
  80. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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  81. heymonkey

    heymonkey You are all my guinea pigs

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    eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee thank you!
     
  82. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    And with that, this review is complete.