Love Boat 3 - This time it's Bearsonal

[The Bear]

Design Link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lE5OjINP93VY8QOEmEdYB_OBu7dpHhuFmXmRfJb9XzY/edit?usp=sharing

Designer: Grizzly
Reviewers: @Android Sophia and @OceanicAir

This is a 17-pair game, so 34 players. The design is outside few roles, functioning as a 17-player game.

 

[The Bear]

flavor: players are all fictional bears. in a big love cruiser boat.

I'm not very good at flavor sorry

 

[OceanicAir]

Couple of questions. What happens when the thief steals from mafia? Also, what does the bookie get when they guess right?

 

[Android Sophia]

I'll check it over in a few minutes.

 

[Android Sophia]

Couple of questions. What happens when the thief steals from mafia? Also, what does the bookie get when they guess right?

Both of these are answered in the sheet, it looks like? The mafia player gets removed from Mafia chat, and joins the thieves for the night.

The bookie bears get 1-Shot Tracking, 1-Shot BP, and 1-Shot Roleblock, in that order.


Speaking of which, the second power for the Bookie Bears feels kinda... weak? If it's just for one night phase.

 

[OceanicAir]

Wow, not sure how I missed that lol. But I agree with the BP lasting that particular night kinda weak. Especially since it is not necessarily easy to get.

Also, I'm assuming the doctors can self target?

And are stolen pairs essentially roleblocked (aside from mafia, although how would that work with 1 mafia pair left?)

 

[Android Sophia]

I feel like the 1-shot Strongman is not a very good counter to the doctor. It essentially boils down to saving it until very late endgame, because you can't be certain where the doctor is until then. I'd say make it two shot at least.

 

[OceanicAir]

Idk, I feel it's hard enough to be a doctor without mafia potentially bypassing 2 of their saves.

 

[Android Sophia]

Idk, I feel it's hard enough to be a doctor without mafia potentially bypassing 2 of their saves.

Well, with a one shot strongman, the end results is that Mafia will save it for endgame almost certainly. They're going to work under the assumption that there's one protective role in the game. Possibly two if they're paranoid. Giving them a second shot means they're more likely to fire off sooner, but... it also means they might have two saves at endgame. So it's a bit tricky to balance.

 

[OceanicAir]

Well, with a one shot strongman, the end results is that Mafia will save it for endgame almost certainly. They're going to work under the assumption that there's one protective role in the game. Possibly two if they're paranoid. Giving them a second shot means they're more likely to fire off sooner, but... it also means they might have two saves at endgame. So it's a bit tricky to balance.

But if they've reached endgame and the doctor is still alive then it becomes increasingly likely that the doctor would have stopped a regular kill which would negate the benefit of saving the strong kill. They also have the role cop that could find the doctor.

 

[The Bear]

Changes:

1. Changed the bookie BP prize to be a 1-shot BP that's permanent, not just for one night.
2. Kept the strongman as 1-shot, since it can bypass the BP too.

 

[The Bear]

Wow, not sure how I missed that lol. But I agree with the BP lasting that particular night kinda weak. Especially since it is not necessarily easy to get.

Also, I'm assuming the doctors can self target?

And are stolen pairs essentially roleblocked (aside from mafia, although how would that work with 1 mafia pair left?)

Doctors can self heal.

The stolen pair isn't roleblocked, but the targeting on the stolen night is done by the half of the pair who was not stolen.

 

[The Bear]

Changes:

1. Changed the bookie BP prize to be a 1-shot BP that's permanent, not just for one night.
2. Kept the strongman as 1-shot, since it can bypass the BP too.

So with these changes, is the BP and Strongman now okay? Or would you two prefer more changes to them? What else do you two needs to be tweaked in balance?

 

[Android Sophia]

So with these changes, is the BP and Strongman now okay? Or would you two prefer more changes to them? What else do you two needs to be tweaked in balance?

BP is fine with the changes. Strongman I'm not sure about, honestly.

I'll look over more in a bit, because I've been out all day and I'm trying to catch up. At a quick glance I don't see anything too out of balance, but I also need to comb it over more.

Question regarding the Bookie Bears: Will they be informed of the powers and order of powers received?

 

[The Bear]

BP is fine with the changes. Strongman I'm not sure about, honestly.

I'll look over more in a bit, because I've been out all day and I'm trying to catch up. At a quick glance I don't see anything too out of balance, but I also need to comb it over more.

Question regarding the Bookie Bears: Will they be informed of the powers and order of powers received?

Bookies are not informed of those things.

 

[Android Sophia]

Bookies are not informed of those things.

So they can't plan ahead then. Got it.

Anyhow... mathematically your game looks like this:

Day 1: 13t 4s (Vig shot used)
Day 2: 10t 4s
Day 3: 8t 4s
Day 4: 6t 4s (Mylo)
Day 5: 5t 4s (Lylo)

Assuming that no protective roles are triggered, that is. It seems fine to me there.

 

[Android Sophia]

Honestly, I'm looking, but I don't see anything really wrong. It's a very well designed game and it looks like you just need to finish the flavor aspect?

 

[The Bear]

Honestly, I'm looking, but I don't see anything really wrong. It's a very well designed game and it looks like you just need to finish the flavor aspect?

I'll need to finish flavor and write the role PMs.

 

[The Bear]

What about you, @OceanicAir

 

[Android Sophia]

I admit it almost feels like I'm missing something. Like I should be seeing more flaws. >_>

 

[The Bear]

I admit it almost feels like I'm missing something. Like I should be seeing more flaws. >_>

>__>

I'll start writing the role PMs now, although things can still change if oceanic chimes in.

 

[The Bear]

Order of Night Actions:

1. Roleblock
2. Role Cop
3. Mail
4. Silencer
5. Doctor
6. Motion Detector (can detect any of the powers on this list)
7. Kill

Thieves thieving command is submitted during day, so it is not counted in this list.

 

[The Bear]

Role PMs:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X9iMS188GpGNeAMwvgnQ0LlVtgUVKpFaVvt2Pj7IY2w/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Android Sophia]

In the middle of a game right now, I'll check them over soon.

Hopefully we hear from @OceanicAir too, because having a second set of eyes on stuff is always a good thing.

 

[The Bear]

In the middle of a game right now, I'll check them over soon.

Hopefully we hear from @OceanicAir too, because having a second set of eyes on stuff is always a good thing.

He mentioned to me in discord that the design looks ok so far, but hopefully he'll chime in here too.

 

[OceanicAir]

Aye, I'm here! I would put the command for the celebs to be "bearlebrity reveal"

Also, do you feel it's necessary to remind that normal game rules apply to mailman messages? To make sure that nobody puts their role pm?

And how does the silencer disrupt PR night actions again? First person in the pair to submit?

 

[The Bear]

Aye, I'm here! I would put the command for the celebs to be "bearlebrity reveal"

Also, do you feel it's necessary to remind that normal game rules apply to mailman messages? To make sure that nobody puts their role pm?

And how does the silencer disrupt PR night actions again? First person in the pair to submit?

Changed to "bearlebrity reveal"

That was a good point about the mailmen. I added it to their role PM.

And yes, first person in the pair will submit if it comes to it.

 

[OceanicAir]

Also, will the stolen players be straight up added to the thieves chat (with all their history) or will a new one be created for each new player?

 

[The Bear]

Also, will the stolen players be straight up added to the thieves chat (with all their history) or will a new one be created for each new player?

I was considering keeping the history - that was how it worked with Priests in LB2.

 

[OceanicAir]

The same role PM rules apply there too right?

 

[The Bear]

The same role PM rules apply there too right?

Yeah

 

[The Bear]

Now that I think of it, it makes more sense sense for thieves to have separate chats for their stealsz since showing past history would confirm too easily that they are town. So I'll change the answer - they have a separate extra chat for each steal.

 

[The Bear]

I'll change Thief role PM to reflect on this.

 

[Android Sophia]

Now that I think of it, it makes more sense sense for thieves to have separate chats for their stealsz since showing past history would confirm too easily that they are town. So I'll change the answer - they have a separate extra chat for each steal.

Good call. You don't want it functioning as an unintended cop.

 

[The Bear]

the role pm has changed to reflect the change.

 

[OceanicAir]

I'd use a bit harsher language about celebrity revelation. I see it as they can post the action but nothing will happen as opposed to the warning anybody would get for posting a fake command. Small chance of it actually being a problem, but that's the only other way I can think of rule circumventing.

On a balance related note, I was wondering about the silencer, is one shot enough? I'm not sure how many there were in previous games.

 

[The Bear]

I'd use a bit harsher language about celebrity revelation. I see it as they can post the action but nothing will happen as opposed to the warning anybody would get for posting a fake command. Small chance of it actually being a problem, but that's the only other way I can think of rule circumventing.

On a balance related note, I was wondering about the silencer, is one shot enough? I'm not sure how many there were in previous games.

I'll change it to "if you use the command on D1, you will receive the "don't post fake commands" warning". Role PM has been edited to reflect this.

It's 1-shot since the silencer has been used in the past as sort of a semi-cop unintentionally, so I want to limit that possibiltiy to as low as possible. A smart scum team will save the shot until later in the game.

 

[Android Sophia]

Honestly, I'm wondering if the silencer would be better just as a straight day/night roleblock?

 

[The Bear]

Honestly, I'm wondering if the silencer would be better just as a straight day/night roleblock?

I think lot of games in the past have had scum roleblocks, both Love Boats included. So I want to shake up that meta a little bit with the third installment. It's also a role that interacts with the main mechanic (The chats). So I don't think I want to change that.

 

[Android Sophia]

I think lot of games in the past have had scum roleblocks, both Love Boats included. So I want to shake up that meta a little bit with the third installment. It's also a role that interacts with the main mechanic (The chats). So I don't think I want to change that.

Ahh.. okay. I'm just trying to think of ways to reduce the cop potential of the silencing shot. I still feel like a 1-shot silence would be seen as a semi-town confirm vs a lie.

 

[OceanicAir]

Couldn't the scum pretend that they were silenced?

 

[Android Sophia]

Couldn't the scum pretend that they were silenced?

Could work, if they timed it right.

 

[The Bear]

Ahh.. okay. I'm just trying to think of ways to reduce the cop potential of the silencing shot. I still feel like a 1-shot silence would be seen as a semi-town confirm vs a lie.

Thinking about this through the night, I think you're right. The bigger problem is that if the scum silencer flips, that more or less town confirms who they silenced AND the Thief, because scum wouldn't have two similar roles. So I think I'll change the silencer into some sort of roleblocker. I'll make those changes in few hours.

 

[Android Sophia]

Thinking about this through the night, I think you're right. The bigger problem is that if the scum silencer flips, that more or less town confirms who they silenced AND the Thief, because scum wouldn't have two similar roles. So I think I'll change the silencer into some sort of roleblocker. I'll make those changes in few hours.

I didn't even think about the thief, that would be huge if a scum flip also town confirms another player like that.

 

[The Bear]

Silencer has been replaced by a roleblocker. Role PM has been changed to reflect this.

Any more issues with the design? Are the role PMs good now?

 

[OceanicAir]

If a rb blocked a rb the second one wouldn't go off right?

Is the scum rb equivalent to the 1 shot silencer? Because a rb and a strong kill are 2 ways to neuter the doctor.

I have no issues with the rest of role PMs though

 

[Android Sophia]

Wait, hold up. Would the silencer have stopped the doctor?

 

[The Bear]

Wait, hold up. Would the silencer have stopped the doctor?

no

 

[Android Sophia]

no

Hmm.... might I suggest putting some restriction on the roleblocker then?

 

[The Bear]

Hmm.... might I suggest putting some restriction on the roleblocker then?

Do you have any ideas what that restriction would be?

 

[Android Sophia]

Do you have any ideas what that restriction would be?

Hmm.. possibly a shot restriction? Or not being able to target the same target twice (either in a row or period)?

Just tossing out some ideas out there that would not undermine the balance by switching the Silencer to a Roleblock (and thereby giving scum two ways to counter the doctor)

 

[OceanicAir]

Could we change the strong kill instead to some other role and keep the role blocker as is?

 

[The Bear]

Could we change the strong kill instead to some other role and keep the role blocker as is?

This works.

 

[The Bear]

I was thinking of changing the role a 1-shot Ninja. That is a counter to motion detectors and the potential bookie 1-shot tracking power. It's not a strong role, but the other scum powers are now fairly strong. Thoughts?

 

[Android Sophia]

I was thinking of changing the role a 1-shot Ninja. That is a counter to motion detectors and the potential bookie 1-shot tracking power. It's not a strong role, but the other scum powers are now fairly strong. Thoughts?

I need to check the game setup again, but off the top of my head it sounds fine.

 

[Android Sophia]

Sorry I'm so late to respond to this, but I'm fine with the Ninja change after looking over the setup.

Ninja counters the motion detector and the 1-shot tracker at endgame.
Roleblocker counters the Doctor, the Bear Thieves, the Motion Detector, the Mailmen.
Doublevoter is a slight counter to the Vigilante, as it gives them a day action as well.
Role Cop gives them info on the roles they can't discern from day start.

I'd also say that with such a change the setup is ready to run too.

 

[The Bear]

Changed Strongman to a Ninja. Role PM changed as well.

So that's an OK from Sophia. Still need OK from @OceanicAir

 

[OceanicAir]

I think it's fine, I feel like something will come up in game though lol

 

[The Bear]

I'll inform people that the review is complete, then.

 

[Android Sophia]

I mentioned this to Roy, but I still technically need to reread the role PMs one last time. The game looks fine on sheet IMO.

Also, it looks like the flavor is still unfinished on the sheet?

 

[The Bear]

I mentioned this to Roy, but I still technically need to reread the role PMs one last time. The game looks fine on sheet IMO.

Also, it looks like the flavor is still unfinished on the sheet?

I'll get to the flavor tonight.