Heroes Vs. Villains 2

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Okay, before going any further. There are some roles like "Rick & Morty" that seem to be two players (or in case of League of Villains, five). How does that work? Is it one player controlling both powers or actually two (or five) players playing the same spot?
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Does the Las Plagas virus have any actual effect on players other than the one power Osmund Saddler has?

How does Optimus Prime turn into Truck mode?

How exactly does the sigma virus work?
 
1. It doesn't do anything other than the Osmund Saddler one
2. You tell the gamerunner that for example Night 2 you want to switch mode. You can't do anything else that night
3. It's a cult.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
First thoughts on HVV2. This post is long enough that I need to break it down to multiple parts.

So the inherent problem here is that the game has too much going on. There are too many different mechanics stacked on top of each other, that it doesn’t really resemble a mafia game at this point. It feels like that the actual game itself isn’t the main point – it’s all of the other things that are happening. That can potentially be fun – but this community is about playing mafia.

Part 1: Suggestions for the general design (the main mechanics and what needs to be fixed first).

Game’s scope needs to be severely cut down. At current state the game would be very difficult to properly control, and most of all, it wouldn’t be fun to players with so many different mechanics clashing at each other at once. At least cut the playercount to 25 – there is no need to keep this game this big, especially considering the points below this one.

Bin the night phase RPG mechanic completely. It’s needlessly complex and does not relate to a game of Mafia at all. The whole mechanic is pretty superfluous, and only connects to the game via killing minions/surviving waves giving players gold. This game is very complicated and confusing even without this whole mechanic existing. I’m going to warn you right now – I can’t see any scenario where I will approve of this game running as long as this mechanic is in this game, so I will structure rest of this post assuming it will be cut, or at the very least changed considerably.

With RPG game binned, all of the roles and store items only related to said RPG need to be binned too.

The store/gold mechanic itself is salvageable though, but I would change how players gain gold to be related to the game of mafia itself. This could be even expanded that players lose gold from certain actions.

”post 10 posts during day phase” (since this is in rules, this would give a very small pool of gold)
”be in the lynch train that lynches scum/neutral” (gain lot of coins)
”be in the lynch train that lynches town” (lose coins)
”guess correctly a player who is night killed next night” (gain coins)

The HP mechanic can work. It hasn’t been done before in this community, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad idea. However, it needs to be simplified somehow. As it is now, with so many players, different tier HP attacks, potions that can replenish health and other modifiers, I suspect it would lead into needing to do math for at least 2-3 hours every night to get everything right. That is not going to be feasible for a single gamerunner to do, and we can’t force the future modchat members to do the maths for you. So the mechanic is going to need some sort of streamlining to make it less confusing for the players and for you once it runs.

The Illuminati can work as well – but it might need some redesigning as well. Having a big secret chat where players don’t know each others alignment could be interesting. However, version where nearly all players know each others alignment is not great – even with scrooge mcduck in there to throw a wrench. I wouldn’t add much more masons or similar on top of this big chat.

Cut out powers and mechanics that only serve to make the players have bad time. Stuff like silencing players or making players lose a turn don’t serve much of a purpose other than to add frustration.

About Power Roles – It’s generally advisable to design the game first, and fit the flavor afterwards, not the other way around. Right now at first glance it looks like the flavor was chosen first, and the roles were written to fit the flavor afterwards.

In general, make the game more focused: just making the game about gaining gold, buying items with power roles and those interacting would be a big enough mechanic for one game by itself. Maybe rewrite power roles that interact with the gold mechanic more – role that can steal gold from players, similar like that.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Part 2: Power Role Dissectation.

So we’re asking you to cut the scope of the game to 25 players at least, so I doubt not many roles are going to stay regardless. I’ll comment every role at least a little in this part, mostly for my own sake so I can see what parts of the roles can be left for future design revisions, and what needs to be scrapped completely. All PR and items solely reliant on the RPG night mechanic need to be scrapped, so I’m going to concentrate on other stuff.

Harry Mason: Alignment cop in this game seems fine. That said, it will need a restriction of some kind (Like X-shot?) and the ”if you are killed you will be flipped but won’t die if you have scanned a non-town player” has to go – it’s stupidly unfair since it basically confirms a red check has happened. Especially after the scope has been scaled down. Shotgun needs to be scrapped with RPG mechanic.

Courage: Town tracker is fine – but it means Mason really needs a restriction because too many cops is bad. What does a mass track mean? Track everyone? Some sort of 1-shot boost as an buyable item is fine – but it can’t be that OP.

Ed & Ein: Not a fan of Ed’s power, since in theory it could cause an anticlimatic end to the game if an unfortunate post is chosen to be shown. Ein’s can be fine, but if you want to keep the Illuminati, I think the number of secret chat roles need to be scaled down. The Bebop assist needs to be scrapped with the RPG game.

Fortnite Character: How is it determined what stuff the character would get from looting? This characters seems to function solely as a town vigilante with all the different shot types. The idea of building a shield against HP attacks seems okay, although I think I would limit it to 2x wall of 50HP protection. Also would add a rule ”can’t build a wall to same player on consecutive nights”. Role has potential though, but it needs to be streamlined I think.

Leon: As noted below, not a big fan of las plagas virus, so the roles related to it I am not a fan of either.

Captain America: Way too many functions stacked on top of each other.

Solid Snake: Weird flavor cop variation, won’t dismiss it outright. The grenades are kind of interesting, Las Plagas less so.

Sonic: So many powers stacked here. How is Space Infinity Stone going to work? What is the turn list in the game right now? What kind of command would Sonic use to move another player on the list? This role seems like it could end up broken from first glance. Chaos Emeralds turns Sonic into an OP vigilante in a game of lot of vigilantes and semi HP attacks.

Todoroki: Seems to be functional with the HP system, but that said system needs simplifying in general in order to work, so I don’t know if this role can survive on scaled down version. The buyable item makes this role unfairly OP vigilante especially combined with the night 4 restriction remover though.

Ulala: Will the targeted player be able to use their power twice permanently, or just once? If permanently, this role could lead to really unpredictable game breaking stuff, wouldn’t suggest keeping this. Not a fan of player revives, so not a fan of the buyable item here.

Yasuo: Scrap all of this, especially the ”turn into a neutral serial killer by your own choice” part.

Firo: Scrap all of this, nearly unkillable roles are not good.

Rick & Morty: Rick is a standard switcher, those usually should have some restriction. Morty’s role is RPG game only, so it will be automatically scrapped. No comment about the infinity stone for now.

Vegeta: Standard roleblocker + illuminati is fine. The stone needs to be scrapped with RPG game and the las plagas I am not a fan of.

Dante: Can function as sort of a veteran/paranoid gun owner variant. Might need redesigning though.

Uther: why does this role need to be this complex? Again with the revivals, unnecessary mechanic clutter.

Optimus Prime: With 1-shot switch that makes two switchers already in this game. At the very least scrap one of them.

Neo: I think sigma virus as a mechanic needs to be scrapped as noted below. Otherwise kinda interesting, not sure if the role will survive scaling down. The Golden One makes Neo invincible to almost all HP attacks outside mafia NK.

Wolverine: Does he receive information what non town players visited, or just general ”someone visited” message? Either way feels kind of OP power.

Cory Baxter: Weird role. No issue with buying a commuter shot though.

Kratos & Atreus: Nothing inherently bad here, just adds to the HP system clutter that needs scaling.

Bride: Same as Kratos & Atreus. The Katana as a weapon ensures the Bride will only use berserk after buying it, I assume.

Turkish & Rocky: Scrap all of this. The illuminati + Ein + this make up too many mason type characters, and the Turkish’ role is just straight up unfun for everyone else.

Raiden: With the current HP system this role feels really OP. Basically an even/odd night commuter that also can potentially kill anyone.

Aloy: No big issue here I guess. 30HP is kind of steep in a game where basically every single character is going to do an action every night.

Jedah Dohma: Scrap all of this. Stupidly OP.

Osmund Saddler: Even with the RPG mechanic axed, this game is way too complex as it is. I would advice scrapping las palmas entirely to remove mechanic clutter from the game. Not a fan of anything else in this role either, should scrap all of it after scaling down.

Vamp: Remove immortals. ESPECIALLY scum immortals. I will not allow this game to run with a role like this in it.

Piedmon: More mechanical clutter. Like all rest of the scum team, really.

League of Villains: Seems too complex, adds a third switcher to the game.

Thanos: Nope nope nope. I’ll accept the role if it’s a neutral survivor who wants to steal the stones, then wins without killing half of the living players. Also won’t be able to use the power of the stones, just holds them. The version as it is is overpowered to all heaven.

Xehanort: Scrap.

Sigma & Ultron: Way too complicated and Sigma Virus is in a game with this many mechanics, unnecessary addition. Scrap all of this.

Gill: Scrap, yet more unnecessary clutter.

Night King: Scrap, the whole role is just about the RNG.

Kefka: Nope. Scrap.

Frieza: Kind of an interesting take on a serial killer.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Part 3: TL;DR. The Start of the review process.

So despite me going through all of the roles so far, honestly I think this would be the best course of action:

1. Scale down the game from 38 players to 25 or less.

2. Re-design the game to center around the Gold/Store and possibly the HP mechanic. Remove the RPG game entirely, and make gathering of gold related to the actual mafia game. HP mechanic can maybe stay, but with almost every role right now being able to take out HP, it needs streamlining too. Illuminati can imo stay, but the size of it needs to be reduced with the whole scale being reduced too.

3. Re-design all roles so that they don’t have so many functions and can be actually balanced. I’m not going to bother trying to come up with worst case scenarios to the game right now due to complex it is. Especially re-design all of the scum and neutrals, outside maybe Frieza. I would suggest designing all of the roles first before slotting any flavor into them.

That said, we should wait for Palmer’s first impressions too.
 
Hmm, that's a ton of changes there, I basically need to start designing this from scratch. Especially because the RPG element was the main idea behind the game and I'm not sure if I want to run the game without it. Pedro had told me that I can make a game like this but you guys would label it as a spin off. I don't mind cutting some roles. I can drop this to around 25 probably.
 
I mean, almost immediately I see Ed and Ein having a potentially game-ending ability. The ability to see a scum post randomly(if you're playing it fairly), means they might get a list of every scum and their power. I'm going to keep going through, but it's soooooo much going on that it's overwhelming. You also seem to be kind of breaking fundamental mafia rules, like having multiple actions per night from one role. That's pretty unusual, but not the end of the world if players have some expectation of that. I don't hate the idea of missions or the gold/store in a vacuum, but having it all combined is problematic. As it stands though, I don't understand the missions AT ALL.

There's also a few roles that seem to lead to what I call a negative play experience. At it's core, Mafia is about talking and voting during the day phase. Anything that prevents you from doing that is a bad idea IMO.

That's my very fast initial pass, which still probably skipped a ton of the specific roles.
 
Things I'd like to know:

What's the fastest you want this game to be able to end with a clear winner? What's the longest? i.e. 6 day phases is the first chance for a win
What is the actual theme here? Is it just an opportunity for you to write some fanfic or what? Like it would help immensely, IMO, if you limited it to cartoon characters, or manga characters, or marvel characters, etc.
Why 30+ players? I feel like you'll be plagued with replacements.
How much time do you have to watch your inbox? This game seems like it requires constant attention.
 
There's no specific theme, it's similar to the first game.
I want the fastest to be around Day 7.
I did say I will reduce the amount of players.
I have a lot of time so no need to worry about that.
 
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Cool. Let us know when you've cut it down. I'd aim for 25ish roles, maybe? There's some interesting stuff in there, but a lot of distractions as well.
 
Players now:26

Roles Removed:
Dante
Optimus Prime
Neo
Cory Baxter
The Bride
Turkish
Rocky Balboa
Piedmon
Xehanort
Night King
Sigma and Ultron--->Stone is now on Gill
Frieza

Roles Changed:
Harry Mason--->Instead of scanning a non town now is being on the lynch of a non town. Also now has 3 shots
Ed and Ein--->Now views 2 messages from Ein's chat.
Fortnite Character--->100HP shield removed, can't use on the same player 2 nights in a row.
Leon--->Nanomachine suppressor removed.
Sonic--->With the 7 chaos emeralds only deals 200 damage to an NPC.
Ulala---->Michael Jackson doesn't revive but fully heals once the player is about to die.(It did the same thing before but making it more clear)
Yasuo--->Renounce Light removed
Firo--->Changed from complete immortality to "cannot die from NPC's or Lynches", active also changed from killing an immortal to killing one that is the same.
Wolverine--->Non town changed to just player in the smell part
Raiden--->Damage changed to half
Aloy--->Damage changed to 20 from 30
Saddler--->Damage dealing down to 40 from 50, redirect down to 20 from 30
Vamp--->Cannot die from NPC's or lynches as well.
Thanos--->Snap removed, cannot use infinity stones. In return he heals 50 HP every time he collects a stone.

Town might be too op now, might need to add back in a non town role.
 
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Mission Changes:

Mission 1:
Removed:
Selvaria and her minions
Changed:
Kel Thuzad:
HP to 250 from 350
Ridley:
Chance to dodge now 10%
Super move now deals 50 DMG
Vile:
on foot HP to 200 from 250
Super move now deals 50 DMG
Marluxia:
Super move now deals 30 DMG

Mission 2:
Removed:
Recoome
Guldo
Changed:
Grievous:
HP to 250 from 300
Super move now deals 60 DMG
Red Skull:
HP to 250 from 300
Super move now deals 10 DMG per night
Starscream:
HP to 250 from 300
Super move now deals 50 DMG


Mission 3:
Removed:
Armored Moo
Z
1 Grey Child
Inky
Blinky
Pinky
Clyde
Changed:
Nebiroth:
Super move now deals 60 DMG
Joker:
Super move now deals 60 DMG
Added:
Pac-Man Ghosts


Final Mission:
Removed:
D' Vorah
Neo Metal Sonic
Changed:
Beast Scrappy now has 300 HP


Final Final Mission:
Removed:
-
Changed:
All HP's down to 200 from 300
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Before getting into anything else:

What is the purpose of the RPG game? I don’t understand how it relates to the game of mafia. It feels like a big distraction, and serves to confuse players and not much else. I still want it axed, but I do want to hear an explanation how it will enchance the game itself – the mafia game should be concentrated on the mafia aspect of itself, not a minigame attached to it.
 
This is a spinoff game. Sometimes a mechanic doesn't need to be there but is, that doesn't mean it won't be fun. For example Sorian's game could be done without the vig phases, my last game could be done without the chests. But those things make games more fun, and I believe this one will too.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Playercount: 28 is fine here at first glance.

Two scum teams – even an odd night kills.

Two neutral teams (one has two and one has one) – osmund + jeddah basically functions as third scum team, but only after FoL and FoD are dead. Thanos is the only 100% neutral team here.

Illuminati chat: This is fine.

Events: There are issues here. Going for them at later post.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
roles:

town



Captain America: Cannot be re-directed or roleblocked. Role is innocent child. The soul stone as alignment check is fine here, since it’s just one-shot and can be moved to a non-town role. Role seems fine.



Sonic: I don’t like switchers, but it being tied to a stone is fine, and it’s just 1-shot.



Vegeta: I think that his role should only be having the stone, since an override power is really powerful on its own. I think it’s good that the stone is already nerfed if Thanos gets it.



Rick: I would reduce switch shots to 2 or 1 – 3 seems bit excessive, given how powerful switch as a power can be. I need an explanation of the Time Stone – can it create multiple copies of same item if the retry results in a successful event? Like can there be two Morning Stars?



Solid Snake – Seems fine, although I would cap how many infinity stones Snake can steal. Like maybe limit that to one? Him having any more would make him kinda OP (and help Thanos too much if he dies). The role name cop is a fun enough idea for a bastard game.



Firo: Please no deathproof roles even with powers that can remove them. So I’d remove Deathproof. My suggestion is to give him an x-shot roleblock power from Vegeta, since I asked for Vegeta to be nerfed already.



Uther: Pretty standard healer. Does strongman go through the shield? Can he heal a player consecutive nights, can he heal himself? Can he give give shield to himself? Otherwise OK.



Connor: 3-shot alignment cop is pretty powerful, even in game with multiple millers and godfathers. I’d reduce this role to 2 shots, while removing one of the godfathers (more on that on the later roles). Because with the Soul Stone that would still already be 3 alignment shots.



Ed & Ein: Not hot on Ed’s power, it seems kinda useless. How are the messages decided, RNG? Otherwise the role is fine, and Ed’s doesn’t really break the game either, so it can stay if you want to.



Leon S. Kennedy – This is fine



Ulala – Since this is only 2-shot power, it’s fine. Can I get a list of how this affects all different roles, to double-check everything?



Yasuo – I’d remove Steel Tempest, because I can’t really see anyone ever use this power. Again with BP, does strongman bypass it? Does Wind Fall last for just that night, or is it long lasting power?



The Man with No Name – This is fine, even if the role itself isn’t usually very pro-town.



Raiden – 3-shot watcher is too powerful. Players usually have a pretty good idea who will be night killed in the mid-game, so this could be too powerful role for town. Either reduce shots or make it a tracker or similar (that said, there is already a tracker so I’d personally make this a 1-shot watcher).



Arthur Morgan – The honor system is interesting enough, good call that Arthur doesn’t know how many points he has. Still, this role has an issue that it could turn into a cop by accident (if he ends with positive points and the player who got the double-vote outs themselves), but this is mitigated somewhat by no knowledge on what amount of points he has. I’d remove the BP, and only keep double-vote/secret vote. This game already has pleanty of BPs, it really doesn’t need any more.



Aloy – This is fine, tracker with 2-shots. It illustrates that Raiden is too OP, and needs to be nerfed to 1-shot watcher.



Kratos – Make this one-shot power, two is too much. Otherwise I’ll allow it in a bastard game.



Ditto – Remove this one. It’s too unpredictable, and could potentially screw up balance if the player ends up receiving a role that is not compatible with this game. Suggestion: make this a town universal backup who inherits the role of the first town player who dies in the game. Some roles would need to be uninheritable (Arthur Morgan) and any items wouldn’t be inherited (stones, shield, etc.) Illuminati membership shouldn’t be inherited either.



Geoffrey S. John – I need to think of this for now, but I’d maybe reduce the ITA hit rate from 10% to 7%. It’s bit bastard in a game that isn’t as tied to ITA as Marvel Mafia was.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
roles – scum teams and neutral(s)

forces of light

All for one – The copy has lot of problems – for first, what if they copy the powerful neutrals? That could potentially break the game. So firstly, I’d make it that AFO can only copy roles from town. Also, reduce it to 1 shot, 3 is way too much. And make it so that he can only copy alive players, copying dead players is potentially gamebreaking. If you make these changes, he could be sort of a scum version of Ditto with somewhat different mechanics.

Akuma – This is fine.

Kefka – This is fine.



forces of darkness

Xehanort – This is fine

Dracula – I would limit Hellfire to lasting just 1 or 2 nights. Otherwise fine.

Ganon – Magic Shield needs a nerf (maybe roleblock for next night on everyone who visits him the night he uses it?), because as it is now it’s too OP.



Jedah & Osmund – functions as 3rd scum team, is ok.

Jedah – Needs nerfs. Remove the part where he flips as town, that is one form of bastard I don’t allow imo. If you want flip-related bastard element, make it ”flips without role PM”. I need thorough explanation on how the post manipulation works. Otherwise seems fine for this bastard type game.

Osmund – I’m fine with this role.



Thanos – Remove the part where they flip as town with specific stone. That is kinda useless for Thanos. Otherwise I’m fine with this.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Events:

Great Fairy – Otherwise fine, but adds yet another BP in a game design full of BPs. I need to check how many BPs there are, but at first glance I think at least once needs to go from somewhere.

Dutch duel – Seems fine, although the prize here if only good for Arthur.

Guessing Game – Same as Duel, only Dracula will get anything from this item. It’s fine though, just needs the nerf on Draculas power discussed above.

Liar’s Dice – Kratos already needs a nerf from 2 to 1 shot, not sure how I feel on this item giving him one extra. Need Palmer’s input to this.

Carmen Santiego – Are players limited on how many times they can submit a PM? A player could spam PMs with all the countries and cheese this. Otherwise I’m cool with it.

Coin collector – Because I’m already asking deathproof removed entirely, the prize here needs to be edited.

Sans – Is it decided by RNG who duels him? Needs a cap of 1 how many Sans can actually kill.

Guessing Game 2 – The GW needs to be nerfed considerably, otherwise this game could turn into a total RNG fest depending on what happens the night GW operates.

Galeem/Dharkon – Needs to cap how many players these events can kill to 1 or 2.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Amount of potential BP shots (Including Firo and Ditto) - 7

This needs to be witted down. Well Firo needs to be removed so that is one, so I'd recommend removing at least one more, potentially two.
 
Alright, nothing seems to be changed considerably, happy for that. Although I really want to keep the town flip at least for Jedah. I will wait to see what Palmer says and then change. One thing I wanted to say is that, when Thanos gets a stone, everyone will know he got it.
 
Tbh it fits the reality stone gimmick and just for the chaos of it all. It might be unnecessary but I really want to include this once to see the reactions and how it will be received, has anyone included this before on Era?
 
Ok for actual thoughts on the changes.

Illuminati: I'm thinking of making the players unable to talk about the Illuminati outside of the Illuminati chat, making it top secret, but not sure on that.

Captain America: Going back and forth of making the Soul Stone a true check, bypassing millers and godfathers, need feedback on that. Will likely end up not doing it.

Vegeta: Can be nerfed on just having the Override with the stone, roleblock can go to Firo, although I will change the name of the character because it doesn't really fit.

Rick: Am ok with nerfing his shots to 1, the time stone can only be used on an event that you lost, and not on all of them. You can use it on Great Fairy, Dutch's duel, the coin collector and the bad time one.

Snake: I will cap the amount of items he can hold at a time to 1.

Firo: Will change the character if the Vegeta changes are made, probably will end up being a roleblocker.

Uther: Strongman does not go through the shield, does go through the heal though. He can heal himself only once, and can heal the same player on consecutive nights. Can't give a shield to himself, shield also isn't an item, can't be moved from player to player.

Connor: Fine on removing a shot from his role.

Ed and Ein: Maybe she can view the whole chat? Would that be gamebreaking?

Ulala: Captain America can roleblock twice, Sonic does nothing since he can't commute twice, Vegeta nothing if changes go through, Rick will switch 2 duos of players, Snake will do his thing on two players, Firo will roleblock twice, Uther will heal twice, Connor will scan twice, Ed and Ein will create a chat between 2 duos of players, Leon removes the virus from 2 players, Yasuo can use whatever ability he was going to use twice, Man with No Name does nothing, Raiden watches twice, Arthur nothing, Aloy tracks twice, Kratos probably chooses twice although I kind of want to say nothing because he is op, Ditto nothing, Geoffrey nothing, All For One chooses twice, Akuma chooses twice, Kefka can use whatever ability he was going to use twice, Xehanort chooses twice, Dracula does whatever he was going to do twice, Ganondorf nothing, Jedah nothing, Osmund infects twice, Thanos nothing.

Yasuo: Wind Wall lasts only for that night, I updated the spreadsheet as well. I think I will keep the Steel Tempest there for anyone that wants to use it.

Raiden: I was thinking about this and yeah moving him to 1 shot is probably a good idea.

Arthur Morgan: I don't think it will be very easy to guess since the exact amount of points he has will be hidden from everyone except himself when he dies, meaning they won't know if it's 1, 2 or whatever. Also is probably a good idea to remove a BP since I agree there are a lot of them.

Kratos: Yup, I agree on that.

Ditto: Universal backup sounds like a good replacement, and yeah some roles won't be inheritable and items and Illuminati membership won't either.

Geoffrey: I am ok with making it a 7%, although I doubt it will make a difference in the end.
 
For scum roles

All for One: Am ok with removing the copy from dead players and only being town(some like Arthur won't be copyable obviously), but I think he should have at least 2 shots of his power.

Dracula: Hellfire lasts 1 night, updated the spreadsheet as well.

Ganondorf: Am ok with nerfing the Magic Shield, I'm thinking of either a roleblock for the next night or a 1 night delay for when they use their ability the next time.

Jedah: I still want the town flip like I said, post manipulation works like this, for example select a player and say "On the first 24h of the day, they will say "x", and on the last 24h of the day, they will say "y" "

Thanos: Am ok with removing that.
 
Events

Great Fairy: Can remove the BP but I need to think of a replacement usable by everyone that's not a kill, maybe a 1 shot commute?

Liar's Dice: I can change this to giving Connor one more scan, at this point I should say that if the people the items are designed for have died before their events play out, then the event will probably grant another player 1 more shot of their power, since I don't really want to remove an event. Probably 1 being giving another shot to Ganondorf's magic shield if we nerf it.

Carmen Sandiego: 1 PM per player

Coin Collector: Ok with that, need to think of something else though.

Sans: It's RNG, I'll say the cap will be 2.

Guessing Game 2: I guess only flipping the scans? Would that be a good enough nerf?

Galeem and Dharkon will have a cap of 2 each. Also the attacks will be
Galeem: "Drill Pierce, attacks a single player", "Heat Seeker, attacks a single player", "Lens Flare, attacks 3 or 5 players, 3 if Galeem is above 30% HP, 5 if Galeem is below 30%.

Dharkon: "Thorn Spray, attacks a single player", "Shadow Eruption, attacks a single player", "Tangled Rush, attacks 3 or 5 players, 3 if Dharkon is above 30% HP, 5 if Dharkon is below 30%.
 
Checking it out now. The spreadsheet from before is being ignored completely now, right?

Edit: NM, I see the new sheet
 
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So this is posted without reading anything else you guys have said. I'll catch up on that after this.

I don't particularly like two opposed scum teams. They tend to end up in a shitty kingmaker situation where the losing team gets to decide who to fuck over the most. That's just a personal thing though, and it also varies depending on how much is open info. If town KNOWS there are two enemy teams, it helps. Otherwise it's really easy to fake being town when you can legitimately be scum hunting the opposing team. Fake edit: and it's really 3 teams cause the Neutral pair are really just another scum team for most purposes. Thanos is also effectively anti-town. This is 19 town vs 9 scum, and town can't even rely on normal scum hunting very well. Town is super duper fucked by this balance.

About Illuminati, if you want them to remain secret, including from their own teams. Have a neutral who wins and ends the game by killing them, and let the illuminati know that. For example, maybe the illuminati are protecting the infinity stones, and Thanos is killing them to collect them. He starts with one gem, and is immortal maybe? So his threat never goes away. Downside is, depending on how things go, Thanos could just get an easy win and town has no way to stop him.

Fake Edit: I realize as I go through roles that scum aren't Illuminati. Do the illuminati know they're all town? Fake Edit: I see one non-town illuminati

Roles now.

Cap: WTF is strong willed? Can the virus mind control move make cap using soul stone? How do you resolve if cap is targeting Osmund with RB when Osmund uses the mind control or RB against Cap?

Sonic: Seems fine. Same questions as Cap for the virus interaction with commuter, as well as how he'd use commuter on another infected player?

Vegeta: Is his Day lynch public?

Rick: Can't judge until I see events, I guess. Seems weird that his base ability is a better version of what the Space Stone does.

Snake: If he targets someone twice, does he receive the same names twice? How is this determined? Also you have this listed as every night and 2 shot. Which is it? Can you steal infinity stones?

Firo: Deathproof is pretty strong. Is it also lynch proof? I forget. Can strong kills kill him?

Uther: Seems fine. He's just a doc with one provisionally better heal. DOes the BP apply the same night he gives it?

Connor: What alignments does he get for each faction and neutral?

Ed and Ein: I normally hate spy abilities but this seems like it could work. The two players are probably too suspicious of each other to post anything terribly useful for Ed to see. I don't like the RNG of which messages to see at all though.

Leon: Just call him a ninja, that's the same thing as untrackable unwatchable. Seems ok as a counter to Osmund.

Ulala: Need clarification on it. I assume it means the targeted player can use their ability twice on a future night. Does that use ignore shots? Like what if they target someone who has 0 shots left. I'd consider just making this a recharge ability where he grants +1 shot to the player.

Yasuo: 2 days with no alignment, effectively. What is revealed if they die while drunk? Or do they have their BP even while drunk?

TMWNN: I hate thunder dome abilities. It usually just ruins a day and is fairly anti-town. I wouldn't use this ability if I was town. How does it interact witrh the Vegeta day-gov?

Arthur Morgan: This could be weird. Do players know exactly how much honor he had? Do they even know if his ability triggered? Also not a fan of the RNG nature of it.

Aloy: Fine

Kratos: Interesting ability.

Ditto: Eeeehhh, that's impossible to balance for. I'd make them a backup or something instead. Basically, first town PR that dies, Ditto takes their remaining power.

Geoffrey: WTF is ITA? Miller will claim Day 1 every time if they're competent. Also RNG. Bad role, IMO.

All for one: Oh well, here's ditto basically.

Akuma: Doubly rewarding scum for killing illuminati now, and is basically a specific fluff cop. Think this and illuminati need some rework.

Kefka: Seems fine

Xenahort: Vote stealing is extremely annoying and I'm not a fan. It's the whole damn point of Mafia, to vote. It's why I hate thunderdome as well. How exactly do they control the vote? Does the other player know?

Dracula: 1 shot jailer and 1 shot bp. This team seems weak in comparison to the other team so far.

Ganon: 1 shot janitor, 1 shot paranoid gun owner. Seems okay. Could be really swingy or completely useless.

Jedah: Godfather, 1 shot vig, illuminati(so I guess illuminati is not a mason chat), WTF does post manipulation mean?, built in tailor(this is hella scummy), who the hell are galeem and dharkon?, 1 shot BP(how does this interact with fake role flip?). I need math done on the souls crap. This is too much going on with 1 role.

Osmund: Same questions as before about how las plagas interacts with a variety of abilities. Does he know which people started infected? DOes he know what abilities they have? How does he decide what ability they are using? The mass RB is fine aside from the question of overlapping roleblocks, commutes, etc. Need math for the souls thing.

Thanos: Seems ok? The tailor flip is dumb as always. Town is already fucked, you don't need to punish them more.

Events.

WTF? How do you run these, how do people participate? Mostly seems like RNG nonsense, and even winning most of them is likely to be useless to your character. For Galeem/dharkon, why wouldn't the players just choose not to participate? It's more RNG crap where you might suddenly lose the game due to bad luck.
 
Town will know 2 teams exist plus that Jedah exists.

Cap: Strong Willed means can't be redirected or roleblocked, Osmund is essentially useless against Cap.

Sonic: Commute is a self action, he himself commutes

Vegeta:Yes

Snake:He can't target the same player multiple times, also 2 shots and yes he can

Firo: I will remove this probably

Uther: Nope

Connor: Non-Town for any case

Ulala:If someone uses their ability they will be notified they can use it twice, without wasting a shot, otherwise they won't.

Yasuo:He knows he is town, everything is revealed, BP isn't active

The Man with no Name: Vegeta can only use it on one of the 2

Arthur: They don't know the exact amount, Rng isn't a problem here because it benefits town no matter what.

Geoffrey: ITA means In thread attack, it's a game mechanic. Rng is a 7% here so it's not that high.

Akuma: I can remove the extra kill.

Xehanort: The other player knows.

Osmund;: He doesn't know the started infected, he does not, they use what they were going to use

You can't not participate on Galeem and Dharkon. I disagree on town being fucked, imo there being 2 scum teams that can shoot each other and some BP's help town a lot, I actually think they have the upper hand.
 
I really want that to stay, I don't care about the Thanos tailor but that one I want in, is there any way it can stay? I don't understand how much it impacts the game anyway. I don't think it impacts it much.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
One worry: With three opposing teams, will their night kills end up hitting each other? Town might not need to do any work, and go luigiwinsbydoingnothing to victory. Kind of like how first game ended with the yugioh instawin.
 
I guess removing the Akuma kill puts them at around the same level. I don't think 3 is that strong, considering they can't kill until both teams are dead, they are sitting and waiting until then.
About them hitting each other, I mean I can't answer that, chances are they will hit town, but that's why I'm saying town is actually not fucked.
 
Ok, this auto-tailor problem is complicated. First, is it fucks over anyone in town who voted for Jedah. You could be playing a damn near perfect town game, and went all in on Jedah cause he was being scummy, but when he flips, you lose all credibility. This might happen to MULTIPLE townies. It also immediately fucks over any PRs that had used and/or revealed their abilities to prove he was scummy. It disproportionately punishes GOOD town play, with absolutely no downside for Jedah and Osmund. Speaking of Osmund, it also gives him free reign to get a ton of town credit by adamantly defending Jedah. You've also basically cost town an entire day, cause the next day is going to go to absolute shit and be completely off track due to Jedah's fake town reveal.

To sum it up, his tailor flip is equivalent to the following:

Town loses 1 day of voting
Mod-sanctioned message that says don't trust the people that voted for him(even though they should)
Mod-sanctioned town cred for Osmund
Randomly reveal some town power roles

Was going to post a little more about other stuff but I gotta head out for now.
 
Ok how about it's gained somehow, would that work? Jedah is Godfafter though so if he is scanned he will appear as town anyway.
 
I mean I can remove it if I'm forced to but it depends on how many other interesting mechanics I will be forced to remove.
 
Everything usually has a counter to it though. There's basically no way for town to play around that ability. A lot of your other stuff is a bit crazy, but you've included counters for the rest.
 
Changed the Spreadsheet to reflect what we have said thus far.

Changes:

Town

Vegeta:No Roleblocks.

Rick: 3 shots--->2 shots

Firo: Firo--->Hit, roleblocker with 2 shots.

Connor: 3 shots--->2 shots

Ed: Will keep this the same, although Ed watching the whole chat is still in my mind.

Raiden: 3 shots--->1 shot

Kratos: 2 shots--->1 shot

Ditto: Became Town Backup.

Geoffrey: 10%--->7%

Scum
Team 1:

AFO: 3 shots--->2 shots and only on townies that have compatible roles.

Akuma: 3 shots--->2 shots (Not sure if after these nerfs I still need to remove the extra kill).
Team 2:
Ganondorf: Magic Reflector: Instead of kill, it makes it so that the night they target him, their abilities will be delayed by 2 nights.( In the meantime they can still use any remaining shots on the next night).
Team 3:
Jedah: I have removed the tailor, let me know if I can keep the no PM flip.

Events:
Great Fairy: --->Chaos Emerald hunt, similar process, Chaos Emerald if on the hands of Geoffrey, raises his chances of hitting to 15%, or if owned by Sonic, gives him a Commute shot(if the item is stolen Sonic loses 1 shot).
Duel with Dutch: Can also buff The Man with No Name, allowing him to gladiate as many people as possible.
Liar's Dice: Instead of buffing Kratos, it buffs Connor, Rick and Ed and Ein.
Coin Collector: Gives the Oathkeeper, if Xehanort has it he will have rng protection for any event/ITA that might kill him.
Guessing Game 2: GW only changes the scans.
Galeem/Dharkon: Added their attacks.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Worst Case Scenario Outline. Note that this outline assumes ITA kill is always a success, even though that's very unlikely:

Osmund + Jedah wins version:

Day 1 Starts - 28 Players
Day 1 Ends - 26 Players (Lynch + ITA Kill)
Day 2 Starts - 23 Players (Night Kill, and Jedah uses his Vigilante kill. Kratos gets his kill out. Kefka also poisons someone 2x thanks to Ulala. AFO Steals ITA Kill Scum team 2 is eliminated)
Day 2 Ends - 17 Players (Lynch + ITA Kill. AFO ITA Kill. Dharkon appears, kills two players. Thanos wins)
Day 3 Starts - 16 Players (Night Kill)
Day 3 Ends - 13 Players (Lynch + ITA Kill, AFO ITA Kill).
Day 4 Starts - 12 Players (Night Kill)
Day 4 Ends - 8 Players (Lynch, Sans kill, ITA Kill, AFO ITA Kill)
Day 5 Starts - 5 Players (Night Kill, Kefka Poison Kill 2x, Scum Team 1 is eliminated)
Day 5 Ends - 2 Players (Lynch, Galeem kills two players)

Osmund and Jedah wins at this point.
 
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The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Forces of Light wins version:

Day 1 Starts - 28 Players
Day 1 Ends - 26 Players (Lynch + ITA Kill)
Day 2 Starts - 23 Players (Night Kill and Jedah uses his Vigilante kill. Kratos gets his kill out. Kefka also poisons someone 2x thanks to Ulalala. AFO Copies Geoffrey. Scum team 2 is eliminated)
Day 2 Ends - 17 Players (Lynch + ITA Kill. Two Dharkon kills. Thanos wins. AFO ITA Kill).
Day 3 Starts - 16 Players (Night Kill)
Day 3 Ends - 13 players (Lynch + ITA Kill, AFO ITA Kill)
Day 4 Starts - 12 players (Night Kill)
Day 4 Ends - 8 (Lynch + ITA Kill + Sans Kill, AFO ITA Kill)
Day 5 Starts - 5 Players (Night Kill, Kefka Poison Kill 2x)

Game ends on forces of light winning.
 
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The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Forces of Darkness wins:

Day 1 Starts - 28 Players
Day 1 Ends - 26 Players (Lynch + ITA Kill)
Day 2 Starts - 23 Players (Night Kill and Jedah uses his Vigilante kill. Kratos gets his kill out. Kefka also poisons someone 2x thanks to Ulalala. AFO Copies Geoffreyt)
Day 2 Ends - 19 Players (Lynch + ITA Kill + AFO uses a ITA Kill. Thanos wins.)
Day 3 Starts - 18 (Night Kill)
Day 3 Ends - 16 (Lynch + ITA Kill + AFO uses a ITA kill)
Day 4 Starts - 15 (Night Kill)
Day 4 Ends - 11 (Lynch, ITA Kill, AFO ITA Kill, Sans Kill, Scum Team 1 Dies)
Day 5 Starts - 8 (Night Kill, Kefka Poison Kill 2x)
Day 5 Ends - 5 (Lynch, Galeem kills 2)

Game ends in win of darkness.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Okay so the worst case scenarios all end at Day 5. However, that would mean all 7 theoretical ITA Kills would go through, which is basically impossible.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
With akuma and ganondorf are swapped, I think the two scum teams are more on even footing. Double-poison for Kefka gives bit of an edge.

I'll make a town scenario next.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Town wins scenario:

Day 1 starts - 28 Players
Day 1 ends - 26 Players (Lynch + ITA Kill)
Day 2 Starts - 23 Players (Night Kill and Jedah uses his Vigilante kill. Kratos gets his kill out. Kefka also poisons someone 2x thanks to Ulalala. AFO Copies Geoffrey. Scum Team 2 is dead)
Day 2 Ends - 18 (Lynch, ITA Kill, AFO ITA Kill, Dharkon kills 2 players)

I think that's enough to kill Forces of light, Darkness and Osmund + Jedah?
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
I don't think town win issue is with town being OP per say, it's that the scum teams might cross-fire each other hard.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
only way to fix that would be to remove the multiple teams aspect, but I doubt Geno would want that. So it comes to do we want to let the game out with this possibility in mind. This will be advertised as bastard regardless, and after hvv1 I think people would expect that there are sheaningans.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
so with these scenarios hinging on the ITAs hitting, they are pretty much not going to happen. I think it's much more likely to expect either 1 or 2 ITA kills, depending on if AFO copies the role or not.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Some observations:

I'm fine with the new versions of the events.
The changes to roles are fine.
I'm willing to let Jedah flip without PM.
Make it so that AFO cannot copy Ditto.

So at least right now I think game is at ok state. It's very bastard, but not outright broken.

I want Palmer to go over everything.
 
Night action list:
Actions separated by - happen at the same time.
  1. Ulala's ability
  2. Yasuo's Wind Wall(makes someone untargetable) - Sonic's Commute - Ganondorf's Magic Reflector(abilities on him are delayed 2 nights) - Dracula's Commute - Dracula's Hellfire(a player can't visit another player or be visited by another player), Kefka's self BP for a night - Dinner with Carmen Sandiego
  3. Hit Roleblock - Akuma Roleblock - Cap Roleblock - Saddler's Roleblock - Thanos Mind Stone Roleblock
  4. Rick's Switch - Thanos' Switch - Sonic's Switch
  5. Kefka's Redirection - Osmund's Redirection
  6. Uther's Heal - Uther's BP give - Yasuo's BP destroyer
  7. The Man With No Name Gladiate - Osmund's Infect - AFO's Role Copy - Xehanort's Vote Steal - Jedah's post manipulation - Thanos' post manipulation
  8. Leon's Virus Removal
  9. FoL/FoD faction kill - Jedah's Vig Shot - Akuma's Vig Shot - Kefka's Poison - AFO's Strong Kill - Ganondorf's Janitor
  10. Kratos' Kill
  11. Snake's Investigation and Item steal - Connor's Scan - Cap's Scan - Thanos' Scan
  12. Aloy's Track
  13. Raiden's Watch
  14. Yasuo's Self Sacrifice
  15. Someone gives an item to someone else.
 
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Okay, forgive me if this has been answered and I've missed it somewhere - there are references to events and ITAs - are these the same or are there ITAs as in Marvel? I'm trying to make sure I understand the game structure first.
Yes for Ed and Ein, and yes those are the same ITAs as in Marvel.
 
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heymonkey

yesssss my guinea pigs
Staff member
Okay. Then I guess my question is - just as I get things organized in my head, because, uh, this is a lot to take in - in the events, why not add some small reward, like a 5% success or dodge modifier, so it doesn't feel useless if the reward doesn't get to the handful of people it might impact? Like the Morning Star is great for Dracula or the people in his faction, since they can pass it, but the rest of the game is like BIG SHRUG other than as a negotiating point. I think you might incite more excitement in the events if there was something for everyone, no matter how small - but I'm curious if that might impact balance. Wonder what Bear things. I do see that my predecessor also had some thoughts about these events.
 
Okay. Then I guess my question is - just as I get things organized in my head, because, uh, this is a lot to take in - in the events, why not add some small reward, like a 5% success or dodge modifier, so it doesn't feel useless if the reward doesn't get to the handful of people it might impact? Like the Morning Star is great for Dracula or the people in his faction, since they can pass it, but the rest of the game is like BIG SHRUG other than as a negotiating point. I think you might incite more excitement in the events if there was something for everyone, no matter how small - but I'm curious if that might impact balance. Wonder what Bear things. I do see that my predecessor also had some thoughts about these events.
I did consider giving winners something useful, but in the end chose not to, in the first game everyone had an upgrade and it made things a bit imbalanced, I thought that this time only a few should have one, for non upgrade stuff, I guess something small like a second vote for the winner is something that can be added. I do want to see what Bear thinks first though.
 

heymonkey

yesssss my guinea pigs
Staff member
Pedro had told me that I can make a game like this but you guys would label it as a spin off. I don't mind cutting some roles. I can drop this to around 25 probably.
So I talked to Pedro because I wanted clarification here and what's missing I think is that if you want to do an RPG-based thing, it doesn't even need to be reviewed. It's not a mafia game. It's a special event.
 
So I talked to Pedro because I wanted clarification here and what's missing I think is that if you want to do an RPG-based thing, it doesn't even need to be reviewed. It's not a mafia game. It's a special event.
The RPG aspect of the game was severely cut down, it's just an event now basically. I don't think Pedro knows how much RPG this game has.
 
I don't think this game is that different from mafia to be considered not mafia. If Pedro insists that it doesn't need a review then I'm ok with that.
 

heymonkey

yesssss my guinea pigs
Staff member
I’m talking about the original. Sorry I didn’t clarify. As is, yes, it’s mafia. In the original form, RPG heavy, it was not. I sought Pedro out for clarification on the remake and to be sure there were no mixed messages.

So it depends on what you want to run. If you want to proceed with this version, we continue the review.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Okay. Then I guess my question is - just as I get things organized in my head, because, uh, this is a lot to take in - in the events, why not add some small reward, like a 5% success or dodge modifier, so it doesn't feel useless if the reward doesn't get to the handful of people it might impact? Like the Morning Star is great for Dracula or the people in his faction, since they can pass it, but the rest of the game is like BIG SHRUG other than as a negotiating point. I think you might incite more excitement in the events if there was something for everyone, no matter how small - but I'm curious if that might impact balance. Wonder what Bear things. I do see that my predecessor also had some thoughts about these events.
I'm not sure what those items would be that everyone would benefit from.
 

heymonkey

yesssss my guinea pigs
Staff member
My suggestion there was just a slight advantage or even disadvantage in the ITAs. It wouldn't be something that moves the needle much, balance-wise, but gives a reward for winning or whatever. My guess is that people will be far less inclined to trade in this game than in last game (gee, I wonder why >.>) so while getting something to keep it away from someone else is a reward unto itself, something more tangible might be welcome. Just a thought.

What do you do with the simultaneous actions if they interfere with one another? If the switches target the same people, for instance?
 
My suggestion there was just a slight advantage or even disadvantage in the ITAs. It wouldn't be something that moves the needle much, balance-wise, but gives a reward for winning or whatever. My guess is that people will be far less inclined to trade in this game than in last game (gee, I wonder why >.>) so while getting something to keep it away from someone else is a reward unto itself, something more tangible might be welcome. Just a thought.

What do you do with the simultaneous actions if they interfere with one another? If the switches target the same people, for instance?
Only one person has ITA's and can already benefit from an item. If they switch the same people then it's like nothing happens, essentially they get switched and then switched back.
 

heymonkey

yesssss my guinea pigs
Staff member
Oh, I thought there were regular ITAs - that's why I asked above, but okay, then scrap that concern.

Re: switchers - I mean if there's overlap, not the same targets. Like say you and I are both switchers. I switch Brazil and Fandorin. You switch Fandorin and Sawneeks. What happens?
 
Oh, I thought there were regular ITAs - that's why I asked above, but okay, then scrap that concern.

Re: switchers - I mean if there's overlap, not the same targets. Like say you and I are both switchers. I switch Brazil and Fandorin. You switch Fandorin and Sawneeks. What happens?
Then targetting Brazil leads to Fandorin, targeting Sawneeks also leads to Fandorin, targeting Fandorin leads to one of the 2 at random. Unless there is a different ruling for that, I'm sure it has happened before, maybe Bear knows.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
If one of the evil teams die off completely, will the game be informed? (Like "Forces of light are defeated, game continues"). Dharkon and Galeem appear if Team 1 or 2 are gone, but players might not know it's related to that, and there is nothing indicating Jeddahs demise.
 

heymonkey

yesssss my guinea pigs
Staff member
Bear, do you concur on the switcher issue above? I just want to make sure that there are structures in place to think through potential problems before they turn up in the game.

Geno, something to keep in mind before you write PMs: several of these roles say "every night, you can do this" but then it's also indicated that it's an x-shot ability. As written, this is confusing. I recommend more standardized language here - typically we do one of these structures here:

Option 1:
Twice per game, during the night, you can target another player of your choice with a roleblock.

Option 2:
You are a roleblocker; during the night phase, you may target another player and prevent their action. This is a two-shot ability.

something like that. But I recommend adjusting all the instances of every night/x-shot here as you prepare to move on to the next stage, once we've cleared this.
 
If one of the evil teams die off completely, will the game be informed? (Like "Forces of light are defeated, game continues"). Dharkon and Galeem appear if Team 1 or 2 are gone, but players might not know it's related to that, and there is nothing indicating Jeddahs demise.
Yeah they will be informed
Bear, do you concur on the switcher issue above? I just want to make sure that there are structures in place to think through potential problems before they turn up in the game.

Geno, something to keep in mind before you write PMs: several of these roles say "every night, you can do this" but then it's also indicated that it's an x-shot ability. As written, this is confusing. I recommend more standardized language here - typically we do one of these structures here:

Option 1:
Twice per game, during the night, you can target another player of your choice with a roleblock.

Option 2:
You are a roleblocker; during the night phase, you may target another player and prevent their action. This is a two-shot ability.

something like that. But I recommend adjusting all the instances of every night/x-shot here as you prepare to move on to the next stage, once we've cleared this.
Yeah I can see how it can be confusing, I will change it in the spreadsheet now.
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Only games with multiple switchers I think are Harry Potter and Volcano Island - both pretty ancient in terms of balancing at this point (and Harry Potter was the game that basically created review system afterwards, lol)
 

The Bear

Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society
Then targetting Brazil leads to Fandorin, targeting Sawneeks also leads to Fandorin, targeting Fandorin leads to one of the 2 at random. Unless there is a different ruling for that, I'm sure it has happened before, maybe Bear knows.
I think this proposal for how to handle this is fine. It should be written down to the design sheet.