Pedro
The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
This was a design reviewed on our Discord instead of this forum, below is a transcript of the discussion:
---
RetroMG 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
RetroMG 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
RetroMG 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
RetroMG 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
RetroMG 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
RetroMG 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Bear 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
RetroMG 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Sophia 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/04/2017
Pedro 11/15/2017
Bear 11/16/2017
---
RetroMG 11/04/2017
@Sophia Or you could tell him here.
Sophia 11/04/2017
That works too.
But yeah. Two things I see so far.
As far as the Scum Ninja goes, scum basically have two options as far as I see: Fire it early and hope that RNG fools the tracker, or fire it late assuming the tracker doesn't die before then.
If the tracker dies, then it's basically two scum goons vs town, especially given the simple nature of the game.
The other thing is, the neutral is kind of odd. It's basically a survivor with a quick way out. Ultimately, she only really needs to tag one player to win.
But yeah. Two things I see so far.
As far as the Scum Ninja goes, scum basically have two options as far as I see: Fire it early and hope that RNG fools the tracker, or fire it late assuming the tracker doesn't die before then.
If the tracker dies, then it's basically two scum goons vs town, especially given the simple nature of the game.
The other thing is, the neutral is kind of odd. It's basically a survivor with a quick way out. Ultimately, she only really needs to tag one player to win.
Pedro 11/04/2017
Yeah, I don't see a high chance of the ninja kill being useful
Sophia 11/04/2017
The only scenario I can see the ninja kill being useful is(edited)
Both the Ninja and the Tracker make it to endgame
Both the Ninja and the Tracker make it to endgame
Pedro 11/04/2017
Yep, only on endgame
Sophia 11/04/2017
I mean
it's not bad design so to speak
But basically, the longer scum go without seeing something in the informative role family, the more likely they are to use it.
it's not bad design so to speak
But basically, the longer scum go without seeing something in the informative role family, the more likely they are to use it.
Pedro 11/04/2017
Since the bodyguard can only defend someone once, that first rule isn't as necessary as it would be for a Doctor
Sophia 11/04/2017
Hmm?
Pedro 11/04/2017
"can't target anyone twice in a row"
They can't defend someone twice to begin with
They can't defend someone twice to begin with
Sophia 11/04/2017
I assume that means, and correct me if I'm wrong @Bear, that they can't say
Bowser targets a gooma > Nothing happens > Bowser can't target the same gooma next night
Even if they fail, they can't target the same target twice.
Bowser targets a gooma > Nothing happens > Bowser can't target the same gooma next night
Even if they fail, they can't target the same target twice.
Pedro 11/04/2017
Yeah, but why?
What's the benefit of adding that rule
What's the benefit of adding that rule
Bear 11/04/2017
sorry, I'm dealing with an ERA-mod issue, I'll be back ASAP
Pedro 11/04/2017
Don't worry, burbs <3
Sophia 11/04/2017
Oh, sorry for pinging you then. We'll have lots of feedback for you when you get back
It weakens the Bodyguard power a little bit, as they have to be careful who they target.
Oh
I see
It prevents follow the cop so to speak?
Well
No
Yeah I'm not sure the target anyone twice in a row thing is needed.
It weakens the Bodyguard power a little bit, as they have to be careful who they target.
Oh
I see
It prevents follow the cop so to speak?
Well
No
Yeah I'm not sure the target anyone twice in a row thing is needed.
Pedro 11/04/2017
^^
I'm sure we had similar Neutrals in past games, let me look it up
I'm sure we had similar Neutrals in past games, let me look it up
RetroMG 11/04/2017
Yes
I can't think of which game, but yes
I can't think of which game, but yes
Sophia 11/04/2017
8t 2s 1n 6t 2s 1n 4t 2s 1n 2t 2s 1n (Lylo) 8t 2s 1n 7t 2s 0n (Neutral dies over night or is lynched on the day phase) 5t 2s 0n 3t 2s 0n (Lylo)(edited)
RetroMG 11/04/2017
We had one for Gafia 2, but it got nixed.
Sophia 11/04/2017
Neutral becomes a Kingmaker of-sorts if they make it to endgame and either Bowser or Mario (But not both) is alive.
well wait no, maybe not.
Hmm,...
thinks.
If the netural has tagged one or the other, and both make it to endgame, then the netural needs to convince the faction they didn't tag to take out their target.
So the Neutral works, but I'd add a stipulation and expicitly not tell them if they successfully tagged one player or the other, but not both.
I assume Burb accounted for that already, but just saying it.
well wait no, maybe not.
Hmm,...
thinks.
If the netural has tagged one or the other, and both make it to endgame, then the netural needs to convince the faction they didn't tag to take out their target.
So the Neutral works, but I'd add a stipulation and expicitly not tell them if they successfully tagged one player or the other, but not both.
I assume Burb accounted for that already, but just saying it.
Pedro 11/04/2017
aah, too many games to check lol
RetroMG 11/04/2017
lol sorry Bowlie
I figured you'd be good since this is a small game.
I figured you'd be good since this is a small game.
Pedro 11/04/2017
nono
I'm sure we had similar Neutrals in past games, let me look it up
too many games to check every neutral
I'm sure we had similar Neutrals in past games, let me look it up
too many games to check every neutral
RetroMG 11/04/2017
ohhh
Pedro 11/04/2017
I saw a few variations of a "Tagger", but tagging always did something else
It's an easy neutral role, and for a newbie-friendly game that's probably for the best
If the netural has tagged one or the other, and both make it to endgame, then the netural needs to convince the faction they didn't tag to take out their target.
If that failed, Peach would still have another chance to tag the remaining target during the night. But yeah, they can influence the outcome of the game
good catch, soph!
It's an easy neutral role, and for a newbie-friendly game that's probably for the best
If the netural has tagged one or the other, and both make it to endgame, then the netural needs to convince the faction they didn't tag to take out their target.
If that failed, Peach would still have another chance to tag the remaining target during the night. But yeah, they can influence the outcome of the game
good catch, soph!
Sophia 11/04/2017
Well no
It's Lylo at endgame
short of Bowser protecting someone
It's Lylo at endgame
short of Bowser protecting someone
Pedro 11/04/2017
oh, i missed the "endgame" part ;x
Sophia 11/04/2017
The neutral basically has to figure out who they tagged, and kill the one they didn't tag to win
Pedro 11/04/2017
yep
Sophia 11/04/2017
It's an unlikely endgame scenario (the Neutral would win or die before then)
but if it does come up, it could prove to make the game complex for that neutral
but if it does come up, it could prove to make the game complex for that neutral
Bear 11/04/2017
k, going to read this chat now
Sophia 11/04/2017
Was just writing up a TLDR for you
TLDR: 1-shot scum Ninja basically boils down to "Use it early for RNG or use it late for guranteed" and becomes useless if the tracker dies before it's used. Neutral has it pretty easy to win, but can find itself in a unique spot should it endgame with both Bowser and Mario alive with one of them tagged.(edited)
TLDR: 1-shot scum Ninja basically boils down to "Use it early for RNG or use it late for guranteed" and becomes useless if the tracker dies before it's used. Neutral has it pretty easy to win, but can find itself in a unique spot should it endgame with both Bowser and Mario alive with one of them tagged.(edited)
Bear 11/04/2017
the twice in a row means that, twice in a row
in bowser targets sophia on N1, they can't target her on N2, but can again on N3
of course, the game is going to be short
so there won't be many night
nights
this rule is on place to make sure the bodyguard can't just sit on the tracker
in bowser targets sophia on N1, they can't target her on N2, but can again on N3
of course, the game is going to be short
so there won't be many night
nights
this rule is on place to make sure the bodyguard can't just sit on the tracker
Sophia 11/04/2017
Yeah
I think I get the point of it now
Well
Hmm
Hold up
I think I get the point of it now
Well
Hmm
Hold up
Bear 11/04/2017
with neutral, I'm open on changing it to whatever
it was 100% designed just with "what would be funny?" on mind, which isn't a good way to design anything
it was 100% designed just with "what would be funny?" on mind, which isn't a good way to design anything
Sophia 11/04/2017
If the tracker roleclaims on D1, Bowser protects it on N1, dies.
The tracker doesn't live again to D3
The tracker doesn't live again to D3
Bear 11/04/2017
most likely not.
Sophia 11/04/2017
I'm just wondering if the rule has a purpose
Bear 11/04/2017
it's a rule I have always used on doctors in my past games, but it can be changed
Sophia 11/04/2017
Well
I'm just trying think of a situation
where the Bodyguard discovers the Tracker
and the Mafia don't.
I'm just trying think of a situation
where the Bodyguard discovers the Tracker
and the Mafia don't.
Bear 11/04/2017
I'm just thinking of loopholes that I want to be plugged just in case
Sophia 11/04/2017
I don't think there's too many loopholes.
I don't see any
Just a few interesting game scenarios that need to be taken accounted for. It's pretty balance as far as I can tell.
I don't see any
Just a few interesting game scenarios that need to be taken accounted for. It's pretty balance as far as I can tell.
Bear 11/04/2017
let's talk about the neutral
Sophia 11/04/2017
So for the neutral
it's basically a unique take on the survivor/tagger role.
it's basically a unique take on the survivor/tagger role.
Bear 11/04/2017
yeah. with 'need to tag both' I felt that it's bit too easy for her to lose
if one of those two dies before she has tagged them(edited)
especially due to how bowser functions
if one of those two dies before she has tagged them(edited)
especially due to how bowser functions
Sophia 11/04/2017
Hmm.
Bear 11/04/2017
the role can be scrapped in favor of something else
I'm not too bent on keeping it.
I'm not too bent on keeping it.
Sophia 11/04/2017
Proposal: What about adding Luigi to the tag list, and simply requiring two of the three to be tagged?
Bear 11/04/2017
that includes two of the two scum
Sophia 11/04/2017
Point
I'm not sure what lore reasons why she'd want to tag MAgikoopa or Koopa.
I'm not sure what lore reasons why she'd want to tag MAgikoopa or Koopa.
Bear 11/04/2017
or goomba :P
those flavor names can be changed, I just threw in what first came to mind
those flavor names can be changed, I just threw in what first came to mind
Sophia 11/04/2017
Well I was thinking power roles, but yeah.
The big issue with the neutral is I think it's a bit too easy to win, maybe?
The big issue with the neutral is I think it's a bit too easy to win, maybe?
Bear 11/04/2017
it's hard to design a neutral for short game as this
Sophia 11/04/2017
Yeah.
Ultimately it's gonna end up a case of "The neutral needs to tag Mario"
Ultimately it's gonna end up a case of "The neutral needs to tag Mario"
Bear 11/04/2017
I can change her to just a survivor
"she just wants out of this mess"
"she just wants out of this mess"
Sophia 11/04/2017
That might be a good idea.
Although
there is an interesting dynamic
if the game ends up in Mylo with just Mario alive.
Although
there is an interesting dynamic
if the game ends up in Mylo with just Mario alive.
Bear 11/04/2017
might as well try to simplify the game slightly
since this design is made to be for new players
since this design is made to be for new players
Sophia 11/04/2017
Yeah, survivor for Princess Peach I think works.
If you're going for a design for new players, that's probably your best bet.
If the neutral is a survivor or something else, you have a pretty good beginner game.
At the same time I kind of want to keep the neutral because it's unique
But you'd have to like change Bowser for it.
If you're going for a design for new players, that's probably your best bet.
If the neutral is a survivor or something else, you have a pretty good beginner game.
At the same time I kind of want to keep the neutral because it's unique
But you'd have to like change Bowser for it.
Bear 11/04/2017
should I add her 1-shot BP?
Sophia 11/04/2017
Hmm
@RetroMG @Pedro what do you tow think? Should he keep the neutral as is? Turn it into a survivor? If it's a survivor does it need 1-shot BP?(edited)
@RetroMG @Pedro what do you tow think? Should he keep the neutral as is? Turn it into a survivor? If it's a survivor does it need 1-shot BP?(edited)
Bear 11/04/2017
I already changed her role in the sheet
RetroMG 11/04/2017
There we go, then
Bear 11/04/2017
I do think that her role is either too hard or too easy in the og version, there is no middle ground
and the difficulty is out of the player's hands, depends on if mario or bowser die early
and the difficulty is out of the player's hands, depends on if mario or bowser die early
Sophia 11/04/2017
I think if Bowser wasn't a bodyguard
then it would work fine.
But bowser being a bodyguard is the issue because the most like scenario is that he'll get taken out early
then it would work fine.
But bowser being a bodyguard is the issue because the most like scenario is that he'll get taken out early
Bear 11/04/2017
I kinda don't want a doctor this time because I do want the game to have bit of flavor to it
so just the usual doctor+tracker is kinda seen and done many times
so just the usual doctor+tracker is kinda seen and done many times
Sophia 11/04/2017
Yeah I hear ya on that.
I like her as a survivor.
I like her as a survivor.
Bear 11/04/2017
I'll keep her with no BP for now. I'll wait on retro and pedro to chime in on that
Sophia 11/04/2017
Alright
RetroMG 11/04/2017
I'm okay with no BP
Pedro 11/04/2017
sorry, talking with family
reads chat
I personally dislike survivors, but that's a more balanced role than the "tagger"
I'm okay with it as it is, no BP
And I see how the consecutive rule would be mandatory for a Doctor, but for a Bodyguard it isn't needed
reads chat
I personally dislike survivors, but that's a more balanced role than the "tagger"
I'm okay with it as it is, no BP
And I see how the consecutive rule would be mandatory for a Doctor, but for a Bodyguard it isn't needed
Sophia 11/04/2017
Hmm
The short length of the game means
the tracker will probably get three nights at best, assuming they survive.
I don't see any scenario where the bodyguard a) figures out they're the tracker and the Mafia don't and b) protects them for all three nights for a 2t 2s 1n/3t 2s endgame.(edited)
This is also assuming that the tracker gets useful results for all three nights.
The short length of the game means
the tracker will probably get three nights at best, assuming they survive.
I don't see any scenario where the bodyguard a) figures out they're the tracker and the Mafia don't and b) protects them for all three nights for a 2t 2s 1n/3t 2s endgame.(edited)
This is also assuming that the tracker gets useful results for all three nights.
Pedro 11/04/2017
and in a scenario where the Tracker roleclaims publicly, Mafia could use their ninja kill just to be safe
so even if the Bodyguard protects the Tracker, they wouldn't be able to track anyone during the night
so even if the Bodyguard protects the Tracker, they wouldn't be able to track anyone during the night
Sophia 11/04/2017
Well more accurately the tracker would not get positive results on scum
They could still get positive results on others.
They could still get positive results on others.
Pedro 11/04/2017
Yeah, sorry
Pedro 11/15/2017
Any news on this, burbs?
Bear 11/16/2017
Not much. Since I have no idea when we are in spotlight
Last edited: