Lovers Thread Xbro & Reki Suite

Discussion in 'Love Boat 3' started by The Bear, May 14, 2019.

  1. The Bear

    The Bear Obligatory Gay Bear of the Society

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    This is the chat of Xbro and Reki! Amazing bear love suite room! <3!

    Please do not quote posts made in this thread to the main game thread.
     
  2. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    So I got paired with another Monolith fan, nice. We have a three hour difference so it's not that bad I guess.

    Also, please feel free to say anything if I'm messing things up. New player and all that.
     
  3. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I'm fairly inexperienced, but I can help you out however I can.
     
  4. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    @The Bear please tell me everyone in this game is bear themed
     
  5. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Actually the role pm suggests only town are bears. That could potentially be useful.
     
  6. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    But then again, maybe not.
     
  7. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    I admit I had to google Kuma since I know nothing about Tekken.

    The PM says;

    We'll see if the flavor has anything to do with alignment though.

    By the way before the roster was announced I thought the couples wouldn't be revealed. So there could be another layer to the game about trusting any lover claim or not.

    This makes things a bit easier though.
     
  8. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    It's usually not a good idea to find alignment based on flavor, though I have seen an entire mafia fall apart due to a small slip about flavor.
    Shouldn't be something we rely on.
     
  9. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Small little thing to note, Stuart saying he'll spare you means nothing. Don't let it get to you. If he were scum it would be a good way for him to make you think he's on your side.
     
  10. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Got it.

    But I do actually believe it's not so common to lunch newbies first day, right?
     
  11. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    It's not. A lot of people do feel similar, but voicing it out of the blue here is a bit strange. He's trying to create a conversation out of nothing, this could either be a scum trying to remain visibly active, or a town trying to create meaningful discussion out of day 1 shenanigans. It might not lead to any thing, just don't let it create a blind spot over Stuart.
     
  12. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Making a note here that page 8 is where things of value start to be said. Barring the Stuart stuff mentioned earlier.
     
  13. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    For someone encouraging discussion, Stuart sure seems to avoid it.
     
  14. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Do you mind sharing from which post onwards? It seems like I have a different ppp config.

    As you said earlier it's NAI, but him flipping town after a lunch derived from a post saying he won't vote for me would be kind of sad.
     
  15. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Somewhere beyond 350. It's not really relevant at the moment, just for re-reads you don't want to read through all the shenanigans.

    I can't really hang Stu too much for this because I'm a very passive player myself. I don't ever defend myself unless I can see a legitimate threat of a lynch. I don't know if Stuart is this type of player though.
     
  16. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Post #573, he's looking for Apollo to catch up to get a new angle to the discussion because he doesn't like what's currently happening.
     
  17. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I might be tunneling a bit here.
     
  18. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    The conversation is centered around a small group of people. If it remains that way throughout the day then lynching one of them will grant the most information.
     
  19. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    I spectated Mansion and Stuart (playing as mafia) constantly got ahead of himself. He was the last of his team an executed someone he discussed with just so he could say "See! They're trying to frame me!" before anyone said anything about the matter at the start of the day.

    By the way before starting I also thought my playstyle would be along those lines, kind of low-key. But the first few hours were just some mindless talk so I posted a bit too much.

    I also wouldn't like to fight against the likes of Sorian or Natiko, but there's some kind of responsibility in this game considering the couples so I can't just accept death.

    Yeah, that's expected considering how big the roster is. They're already talking about who contributes the most so I'm getting a bit nervous.

    By the way, I'd be logging off to do some stuff and then head to bed. Hoping to contribute tomorrow morning after reading whatever was posted by then.
     
  20. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Don't worry about posting too much. Especially as town. The reason I never usually defend myself is because I know that when I'm town the evidence should lead to me being innocent. I'm pretty confident I can dig myself out of whatever hole I fall into. I only get super defensive when I can't see an escape route.

    Whatever you say should be defensible, so activity isn't ever a bad thing.
     
  21. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Also if you've seen Stuart as scum before, maybe check out Monopoly, that was his first game, as well as his first time being scum. Maybe you could draw some parallels.
     
  22. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Sorian is being super aggressive, though I don't know if he's always like this. Admittedly I've only played one game with him and that was Love Boat 2
     
  23. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    I read House of Horrors (his last game) and he was an aggressive town, constantly driving discussion. Verelios described it as;

    It's NAI but, as I said, I'd be uncomfortable arguing with him. The only reason I'd vote him right now is to avoid further confrontation, although his playstyle is good for game-solving. So it's not really in our interest to lunch him.

    By the way you seem to distrust Stuart, I'll give Monopoly a quick read after finishing a post. I don't think he's been too shady but voting together is a good idea, so I'll keep an eye on him.
     
  24. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I've latched onto the Stuart thing because of his initial post toward you. I have yet to place a vote because out feels too easy.
     
  25. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    I forgot I wanted to post that here before there to ask for your opinion, sorry.

    As you said we can defend ourselves out of almost anything so there's no use in holding back, but that doesn't mean I won't get some heat for reads, good or bad.
     
  26. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    No you're good. A post like that probably won't generate heat.

    Heat isn't ever really a bad thing. I like to walk the line. Having no heat whatsoever could lead to a night kill. Having too much heat can lead to a lynch.

    I like to position myself as someone who would be easy to hang if someone would put in some good effort. If a scum tries this it's pretty easy to tell when they are scum. Having a low post count encourages people to look through my history.

    Having long form posts like yours is good because it provokes discussion about it. In a game where the only thing you know it's your own alignment, it's good to have debates with people, because it's easy to see an alignment that way
     
  27. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Yeah I liked when you asked Dr. Monkey for that read. Since we haven't posted that much - compared to other couples - it's far easier to parse through that content. Simple takes like "they feel like town" should be scrutinized.

    By the way, are you still suspicious of Stu? It doesn't seem like mafia would be so resigned to being lunched. Monkey on the other hand is still arguing. For some reason that lunch doesn't feel right (contradictory, I know), but I'll follow your lead if that's your top pick tomorrow unless something else happens.

    However, thinking it more it's easier to argue we're not mafia after a town flip if we voted for different couples. Voting the same could cast some suspicion. But then again that's kind of WIFOM.
     
  28. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I don't know on the Stu situation. Like I said it feels a bit too easy. I feel like there would be more going around. The thing is though, just about everyone has focused on that subject at some point which means it would be a nice info flip.

    I would ride out the next few hours. It's likely that we'll have much different candidates by day end. There are some pretty convincing arguments against Ty at the moment, and he did just deflect the conversation
     
  29. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Stu hanging his hopes on Sorian isn't a very good look, but it means he's taking the game more seriously now, which is a good thing.
     
  30. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I think the Ty4on lead is the most legitimate thing we've got so far. The entire thing rubs me the wrong way from the initial posts to the complete disregard for it. I'm going with my gut here
     
  31. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Yeah I don't want to lunch Stu. I just wish he could give a longer read on anyone instead of jumping at the small things. I hope he has another chance next day phase.

    On that note I've been feeling good about Verelios and Terraforce (not so much Natiko though). They do the same as Stu but elaborating further, looking like sharp players following the thread and pointing out at suspicious stuff. That may be NAI but I like the playstyle at least.

    I'll take a closer look at this, from my fast read nothing stood out to me. Voting the same as you will grant me some questions, so I'd prefer to be prepared to back it up.
     
  32. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    That's good. I'd prefer you have your own foundation on your votes. We're not here to lynch, we're here to lynch scum
     
  33. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Kind of upset that Sorian just jumped on Brazil. My thought process was that if Ty flips scum then it's likely that Brazil is also scum. Soruab voting now means Brazil changes his behavior
     
  34. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Sorian stupid auto correct
     
  35. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Brazil's newest post looks good, but there is a reason I mentioned him instead of terra. Seems he definitely understood that Ty dodged everything, but didn't call him out on it.
     
  36. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Though to be fair he could have been doing irl stuff
     
  37. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    I had some stuff to do before but now I can fully commit. Need to put a vote too.

    Yet to read the last stuff, but in what I believe was his last game Brazil was much more active and confrontational.
     
  38. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Wasn't going to call Brazil out on it, but I figure I should get the idea out in the event we die tonight
     
  39. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    A night kill would be a bummer, but yeah, if you're feeling that strongly go ahead.

    It may complicate EoD (considering Brazil is already playing defensively) but it should be shared.
     
  40. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Now that Brazil is active I'm feeling a lot better about him, but I feel like you can never trust the mafia bros. They're very good
     
  41. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    You mean Fandorin, right? Fun story; when I read his first or second post and reached this part

    I felt so bad for him since I didn't know he was talking about Brazil. I thought it was just a real life problem and sounded kind of depressing.

    By the way I revisited Ty4on's posts. I don't think his late jump on the calling-B-Dubs-out train is enough for me to vote him. If anything because I could see myself making the same mistake.

    Looking at Bae right now.
     
  42. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    The late jump itself is more or less moot. It's the fact that he derailed the questioning of him. The entire thing triggered a bad feeling, so I'm going with my gut on this one.

    It's fine if we find different trains though. If you find something on the bae train then go for it
     
  43. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Soft claim would also lead to a protection at night.
     
  44. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Crazy thing is that even with that huge of a lead there's a good chance of that lynch not going through
     
  45. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    You're right. But mafia could as well decide that they can take care of Bae later in the hopes that town lunches her.

    Unsure about how to proceed. I'll probably just end voting for a couple with no real chances of getting lunched. Which is a terrible argument for a vote.
     
  46. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Save your vote in the event of a tie. You'll need to tie break.

    The more likely scenario is Bae gets roleblocker tonight rather than killed.
     
  47. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Roleblocked
     
  48. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    You mean until the very last minute? Because we're like 15 minutes away from day's end.
     
  49. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I've seen this crap swing out of left field within the last 5 minutes. LB2 I thought I was dead day 2 because the majority was on me 10 minutes away.
     
  50. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Ok.

    If the difference continues to be this big 2 minutes before the day ends I'll just vote Ty4on.
     
  51. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Ok it's already done, let's see what happens now.
     
  52. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    So ty is out. I was looking forward to a defense. Is very unsettling how many people jumped on that wagon without any real reason though.
     
  53. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    We need to look at where exactly everything swung. That shift was super unnatural
     
  54. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Still catching up but yeah, that's a shame. Hope he wasn't having a bad time.

    There's a few players I'd like to look closely. Natiko voted early and Verelios made good points about Sorian/Fantomas. And there's Pirate Bae and Brazil too.

    About the shift, Natiko was making the argument it was Sorian.
     
  55. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I would actually believe that Natiko and Terra are scum.
     
    lokiduck and Fantomas like this.
  56. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Yeah I'll re-read them tomorrow. Just as you posted I was typing...

    Bad feelings about Pirate Bae. Since post #1928 to #1978 she has like four or five times in which she refers to her PR, who did she investigate and what happened to her. What about the partner?

    That FluxWaveZ's comment about how mafia players could feel more disconnected from their partners since they have one big thread could be applied here.
     
  57. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I was scum in LB2, I never really felt disconnected from my partner
     
  58. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Oh yeah. Natiko/Terra are definitely giving bad vibes. If only we got a Ty flip.

    Terra was super passive aggressive toward the entire Ty situation. Only really bringing it up when someone else did, never going in on it until it was a sure thing. Scum never wants to step on any toes.
     
  59. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Just caught up. So we did essentially get a Ty flip.
     
  60. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    While I would like to jump on the terra/Natiko wagon, doing so would be a bad look. We're going to be under a bit of scrutiny, so we'll need to defend ourselves a bit.
     
  61. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Catching up, but Nat/Terra are a strong couple. Even if there was no train we would need good arguments and being ready to a constant back-and-forth.

    By the way Brazil and Verelios made interesting points yesterday about Sorian and Fantomas.
     
  62. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    … so maybe we could look there?
     
  63. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Right now I'm just trying to find an angle to approach the thread. I'm thinking I might do a bit of a read on Terra once I find the time
     
  64. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Watch me get a ton of crap for that comment.
     
  65. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Got distracted so I'm catching up now.

    I'll probably be on/off today but if you need me to back you up I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
     
  66. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I've got you on Sorian's inquiry.
     
  67. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Yeah thank you for that, it's necessary to clean misrepresentations.

    We have a bunch of posters feeling worse about us today like Sorian, Sparks, Natiko or Chuggs (sorry for that!) but I don't want to directly engage that much as you said. It could be misread as overreacting, and we surely don't want the spotlight.

    Unless we are a serious candidate tomorrow.
     
  68. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    If Sorian is scum, and knew bae was breadcrumbing detective, then it stands to reason that he would have orchestrated a rollblock. Either Sorian isn't scum, or scum doesn't have a roleblocker
     
  69. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I think the conversation is now at a good point to engage. As soon as I can find the time I'll go through and search terra's posts
     
  70. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Just caught up. This was noted.
     
  71. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Okay so it's possible that pirate malus is lying about being a one shot investigator, and has more shots in the chamber, if this is the case and scum catches on then they will be dead. Seems odd having a weak investigative role without having another. If there is another it is a good idea to look at anyone still doubting them and inferring if they have one.
     
  72. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Also bae hesitating isn't necessarily a bad thing. If they revealed to the thieves that they were checking tybro, having that information out there helps. Also in general, getting green checked makes you a prime target for scum. Sometimes it makes sense to not reveal it. It's a matter of reading the situation. In this case it was a better safe than sorry approach.
     
  73. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Yeah I could see the 1-shot part being a lie.

    Dr. Stu and Natiko basically fought Sorian for us, so I don't really want to go after them at least for now. I don't want to publicly agree too much with them either; if they flip mafia it would be a super bad look for us.

    I don't necessarily trust Sorian or Pirate Bae, but I'd like to re-read a low-activity pair later today to discuss something new.
     
  74. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I misremembered some things about terra. I need to do a full re-read when I get the chance
     
  75. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    As said earlier, I think he is a good player. He is calling us out so I'll engage peacefully.

    I'm working on a Kyonna read right now, but it may take more time. I'll post it here first though, if only to see if the formatting is ok.
     
  76. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    There we go. We've got our first ISO. Terra's stuff looks clean aside from missing the point against B-Dubs. This means nothing on a read scale unless one of the two is scum. If so, the other likely is.

    If Natiko/Terra is scum, Sorian/B-Dubs is scum
     
  77. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I don't know if Bae has ever actually claimed to know who the thieves are.
     
  78. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Sorian has a bit of a point with the scum gossiper. We've basically confirmed two message sharing roles. I'm not sure if both are town.
     
  79. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Scratch that bit, looks like Pirate Bae did indeed claim to know who it is.
     
  80. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Also I apologize now if we die because of my playstyle.
     
  81. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    The only thing I care about dying is that you'd die with me too, so if you don't mind it neither do I.

    I'm finishing my read on Kyonna. Did you have some time to check Terraforce's stuff? If you want to post about him go ahead, but I'd avoid being too confrontational since he suspected us earlier and it'd look too reactionary.
     
  82. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    (Links probably won't work here)

    Sorry it took this long!

    I've been having trouble getting a read of Kyonna, FlatearthStan and Rincent, so I revisited the first,

    Donna:

    Early vote on CoolestSpot due to meta reasons. Later on Kyanrute will get super interested in CoolestBeat, as I'll point out later, but I do think it's just a coincidence.

    Then she openly answers her partner;
    Regarding the Stu debate of D1 she says it's probably just Town vs Town. She wants to hear more from Zippedpinhead, but feelt good about Fantomas.

    She votes Pirate Bae (#1456) without backing it up, but she later explains that she trusted her partner (#1631). I can relate I guess. To note: unlike her partner, she maintained that vote, even when coming back at EoD after the soft claim. Maybe she didn't catch it? When reading this I also wanted to ask - if you don't mind @empressdonna - how active is your partner chat? Do you feel like you're working in tandem with Kyanrute?

    On D2 she posts a pretty big read list. After sticking with that Pirate Bae vote, this comment was... weird?;
    Some players (like Natforce or S-Dubs) are hard to read to her and there's no hard read about any potential mafia player. Which I can - again - relate to.

    Later on she goes through Terraforce's posts after Monkey asks her to, and ends with a "likely town" impression here. Which I honestly agree with; Terraforce seems to be engaged and actively trying to solve the game.

    Thoughts so far; town-lean.


    Kyanrute:

    A couple questions about past Love Boats, then some more substance regarding voting along his partner. What stood out to me is;
    (Bolded is mine)

    Which makes a lot of sense to me... for now. Then he is "busy reading Stu", only to move to "look at the Doc". After reading Monkey, who argues that it's unlikely that mafia!Dr. Stu would out themselves in the early hours of the game, Kyanrute thinks that it could happen nonetheless. But that doesn't lower his opinion of the pair. A bit later he also calls out Monkey for her "Sorian fixation" and her defensive play thus far. I can't really agree with him here since defense is a logical stance to take in Dr. Stu's position at the time. Attacks could be discounted as desperate attempts to shift the focus of the conversation.

    He also calls out CoolestSpot for not focusing on the quiet players. This wouldn't normally warrant a mention, but he'll continue on CoolestBeat's case later.

    Then he moves to another player;
    This is before the soft claim, so he persists and actually votes for her in #1345. This is basically based on the patented #feels from a past game in which Pirate Bae was mafia and her content looking like she was avoiding discussion. And so he calls out the Tybro train and the Katsune vote too due to it being based on activity. He doubles down on that later (#1608).

    But then he unvotes after the soft claim (#1654), moving to CoolestSpot, which he called out earlier. And then, to avoid a tie, Katsune (which he doesn't really want to lunch).

    This begs the question; if Kyanrute was so sure that some talking was enough to align votes with a partner, why did he admittedly cast a vote he didn't feel comfortable with if Donna maintained her vote on Pirate Bae? Funny thing is he called out Vincent Alexander's vote for Pirate Bae for lacking any explanation, but Donna did the same a few posts above. Since I'm still leaning town on them, best guess is that the reduced timeframe since the soft claim left no time for coordination.

    To be fair to them I found a later post referring to the subject;
    My favorite exhange of him is this though;
    You were one of the few (the only maybe?) who doubted a big post could be too much effort for a mafia player. That makes it way easier, at least for me, to engage with you. For example, I'd like to ask why did you think that Xbro is "hiding scum". That stood out to me as super weird, and I didn't ask then because you said it was just a gut read. But maybe you're ready to comment a bit more on this now?

    Other D1 stuff: He had a soft town read on Chugg. Also town-reading both Brazil and Stantastic. And he likes FluxWaveZ's stuff so far too, even if he finds it "slightly limited".

    D2 starts with him getting worried about CoolestBeat (there's consistency here at least) getting town cred from a letter;
    Other D2 stuff (since I have no more comments on other D2 stuff); he seems to think all the D1 trains were town, if I'm reading this correctly.

    Thoughts so far; town too, just an uncoordinated duo at D1. I also like the way he refers to mafia as "meanies".
     
  83. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Haven't read all of it, but seems all right
     
  84. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I'm actually liking Sorian's arguments tbh, though that could be charisma getting to me. I do see thee strangeness brought up by other people.
     
  85. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Still catching up but I don't know what to think about Sorian, he's too strong a player. There's a bunch of good players that we would have to put a super good case against to lunch, like Natforce, BrawaveZ or Dr. Stu too, so I'm not really sure where to look at.

    Seems like we don't have any votes, but we can't discount a sudden train starting closer to EoD.
     
  86. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    In the old two messaging roles point, seems like coolest may have put a fake message up. Though zbeat was the first to claim it
     
  87. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    If I throw a shady vote toward the end, maybe I'll get pulled in to the thieves chat. If they're town, they'll probably take the bait. If they're scum they'll ignore it.
     
  88. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I'm drawing subtle attention to myself to cement it.
     
  89. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Go ahead!

    Although if they're town, we should want them to disrupt the mafia chat, not a plain town one.
     
  90. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    To be honest I'm not entirely sure how disruptive the role would be to the mafia. All it does is give the scum more information on the players themselves.
     
  91. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    I will need to tread carefully with my next post. Sorian is getting increasingly weary of me
     
  92. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Yeah be careful, Sorian could easily lead a train on us. He basically did the same and just trashed everyone who didn't agree.

    I'm working on a read list but I'm reconsidering posting it the next phase. It's not favorable to be on the spotlight this close to EoD.
     
  93. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    "He basically did the same and just trashed everyone who didn't agree… on D1"
     
  94. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    Pirate Bae was a bit mean in her reads and Fantomas voted us. I can sense a train starting (could it be mafia-orchestrated?) but I wouldn't engage directly just yet.
     
  95. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Yeah I wouldn't engage with that post.
     
  96. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    The beginnings of this train will be good to analyze.
     
  97. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    If we make it through this it will probably be enough without me throwing a random vote in there.

    Be prepared to vote for self-preservation
     
  98. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    Still trying to figure out how to word this post in a way that doesn't draw bystanders to our train.
     
  99. Xbro

    Xbro Bags his own tea

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    It doesn't help that I can't dedicate too much time to the game atm
     
  100. Reki

    Reki Active Member

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    I can't commit either just now, but I'll probably be around like 20 minutes before EoD.

    Would you be too angry if I self-voted? I don't have strong-mafia reads and almost every other viable vote would be seen as trying to get the heat out of us.