Current Nier Roster

[Verelios]

Actually, the chance that Yonah gets hit by a vig shot are so low that I think those odds are good.

 

[lokiduck]

That does sound interesting, I like that solution. Now we have to think of ways to stop Yonah from suiciding.

Well since Yonah will know what the punishment is for both cases since we can't lie about it, I'm not sure what we can really do aside from just letting it happen if it does. It's up to the player how they handle the role, and the only thing I could think of doing is putting a gag order in place where they can't say what the punishments are or even say their role.

Also what is your response to my earlier questions?

 

[Verelios]

Haha, gag orders won't work besides banking on their integrity, so leaving it to the player is fine.

Okay guys, what else do we need to discuss?

Here are the questions I think I still on the table:

-What is the overall opinion on how we should handle Yonah?
-Should Neun just be a sleepwalker instead of a sleepwalking AC (I'm leaning towards the former)?
-Does town and scum seem more balanced now?
-How can we buff scum with the extra abilities they will get if certain scum die?

Town and scum seem pretty balanced as of now. Um, the buff for scum is interesting to think about. I think we'll be looking for one shot abilities since days move fast and there's no need for a lot of shots at endgame. We have Hansel and Gretel squared, but for SL we can either make it conditional on him being the sole scum survivor or we can make it so he gains a power when Grim. Noir dies (probably just one shot godfather or likewise).

Oh, I just thought of something. What about 1 shot delay for SL if Noir dies to mimic the timeskip?

If Noir isn't godfather then Neun should stay as a refular sleepwalker, yeah.

 

[lokiduck]

Haha, gag orders won't work besides banking on their integrity, so leaving it to the player is fine.

Town and scum seem pretty balanced as of now. Um, the buff for scum is interesting to think about. I think we'll be looking for one shot abilities since days move fast and there's no need for a lot of shots at endgame. We have Hansel and Gretel squared, but for SL we can either make it conditional on him being the sole scum survivor or we can make it so he gains a power when Grim. Noir dies (probably just one shot godfather or likewise).

Oh, I just thought of something. What about 1 shot delay for SL if Noir dies to mimic the timeskip?

If Noir isn't godfather then Neun should stay as a refular sleepwalker, yeah.

Noir dying giving SL a buff seems interesting but again scum might be fucked if SL gets taken out first. Of course we could have that Noir gets a buff if SL dies as a response.

Like the idea of the 1 shot delay though.

Then Neun gets to be a sleepwalker only XD

 

[lokiduck]

So quick idea I had was switching yonah’s Punishments to be based on who kills her not based on when she is killed. There’s too much of a risk of a town vig shooting her at night and scum is punished so if we make it:

If she is killed by town (mislunch or vig) double nights

If she is killed by scum (NK or scum power) double days.

So it’s more fair and the side that killed her is fairly punished.

 

[Geno]

So quick idea I had was switching yonah’s Punishments to be based on who kills her not based on when she is killed. There’s too much of a risk of a town vig shooting her at night and scum is punished so if we make it:

If she is killed by town (mislunch or vig) double nights

If she is killed by scum (NK or scum power) double days.

So it’s more fair and the side that killed her is fairly punished.

This is a good change.

 

[lokiduck]

This is a good change.

Yeah I was thinking as much as it actually punishes the Vig even more since it means that scum will get three possible kills in a row since they would have a chance 1. The night Yonah was killed, 2. The immediately following night. 3. The night immediately after that.

There's always a chance that town may be able to protect the scum targets, but this scenario could really fuck over town.

Such a punishment may make the Yonah player more cautious about how they claim too. If I were in their shoes, when I claimed, I'd try and bait a NK.

Scum may let her live hoping town takes her out not believing the claim, but they may think it'll only punish town and take her out when they think it can help them too.

In a way, this also means that Yonah is basically a foil for our two vig shots because if either don't believe her then they screw over town.

 

[lokiduck]

Okay so in my opinion all we need to do is hear what @OceanicAir thinks of everything. Once he has said his piece, if we are all agreed, we may be able to wrap this whole review process up.

 

[lokiduck]

Additional thought: was looking over our excel sheet of the roster and realized something.

the Mayor of the Forest of Myth dies if he hides behind non-town which are our four scum and two neutrals which are all shades.

Part of why Kaine is a miller is that she is possessed by a shade. Do we want to count Kaine as non-town since she's a miller? If we did, it'd justify her being one since we don't have the AC, it'd fit flavor wise, and have her serve as a town foil to his ability.

 

[Verelios]

Additional thought: was looking over our excel sheet of the roster and realized something.

the Mayor of the Forest of Myth dies if he hides behind non-town which are our four scum and two neutrals which are all shades.

Part of why Kaine is a miller is that she is possessed by a shade. Do we want to count Kaine as non-town since she's a miller? If we did, it'd justify her being one since we don't have the AC, it'd fit flavor wise, and have her serve as a town foil to his ability.

That's a good question, hm. I'd assume that Kaine would count as non-town but I'm not entirely sure how fair that would be. I'll go with yes, he does then.

 

[Verelios]

Yeah I was thinking as much as it actually punishes the Vig even more since it means that scum will get three possible kills in a row since they would have a chance 1. The night Yonah was killed, 2. The immediately following night. 3. The night immediately after that.

There's always a chance that town may be able to protect the scum targets, but this scenario could really fuck over town.

Such a punishment may make the Yonah player more cautious about how they claim too. If I were in their shoes, when I claimed, I'd try and bait a NK.

Scum may let her live hoping town takes her out not believing the claim, but they may think it'll only punish town and take her out when they think it can help them too.

In a way, this also means that Yonah is basically a foil for our two vig shots because if either don't believe her then they screw over town.

Wonderful, I agree.

 

[lokiduck]

That's a good question, hm. I'd assume that Kaine would count as non-town but I'm not entirely sure how fair that would be. I'll go with yes, he does then.

Lol we should probably ask Geno and OA since they'd know whether this is allowed but I think it's only fair since the hider can't die unless his conversation partner gets killed that night. There's a risk he chats with the bodyguard the night she actually protects anyone and dies for it but what can you do XD

Wonderful, I agree.

Yep and it still sucks for scum too as there's a chance that if they NK her, two scum get lunched. I could see a world where scum kills Yonah after she claims because they think town will be fucked and it'll win them the game, but instead town gets two more days and the last mafia are lunched.

This solution of Geno's really fucks over which ever alignment kills her and since our two neutral don't have killing abilities they will be completely unaffected.

 

[lokiduck]

Sooooo should we message OA or something?

 

[Verelios]

Goooood question, maybe just ping him on discord?

 

[lokiduck]

I'm not apart of the discord so if someone is and is willing to do it, that'd be swell. XD

 

[OceanicAir]

Um, looking at it again, is there any use to the Miller? There is no alignment cop (unless we are talking about the the weak hider that is kinda coppish). I think not having a foil for them is one of those bastard type elements.

I'd consider the Miller to be non-town for hiding purposes

But one thing I worry about the fact that scum can't directly kill a gossip that will effectively clear players as they visit them. And that as the game goes on there won't be much use of counterclaiming visitors post-death.

 

[lokiduck]

Um, looking at it again, is there any use to the Miller? There is no alignment cop (unless we are talking about the the weak hider that is kinda coppish). I think not having a foil for them is one of those bastard type elements.

I'd consider the Miller to be non-town for hiding purposes

But one thing I worry about the fact that scum can't directly kill a gossip that will effectively clear players as they visit them. And that as the game goes on there won't be much use of counterclaiming visitors post-death.

That was honestly one of my concerns when it was originally proposed that the hider dies when visiting non-town.

Geno pointed out that it's typical for hider rolls but I kind of don't want to have it as a punishment for the reason that it basically makes them a cop. The gossip will be taking a risk talking to other other players anyways as they could be talking with scum and not know it and while scum can't do anything about it unless they target the person they hide behind next, as the game goes on there is a higher chance the gossip hider will end up dying because they accidentally picked the NK target.

One way around this originally we proposed was making the chat anonymous and having the hider's target be random so they don't know who they actually talked to and therefore can't green check them really but then that means them dying is out of their control.

However, I just had an idea besides just removing that aspect.

Since the non town individuals like the mafia, neutrals and Kaine are shades which can be a pretty corrupting influence, what if he doesn't die when he visits non-town but if he visits more than a certain amount!!! Basically visiting one is not enough but it harms him a little bit, so if he visits 3 non-town he will die (in the game we have 7 non-town since we are counting the miller). This way if he dies then it means three of the people he visited aren't town with the miller as a foil to mix up results, so that people aren't instantly greenchecked.

Now with this scenario there is a risk that the hide only visits non-town putting all of their visitors on the chopping block, but even with 7 non-town there is still a chance the hider will visit town besides non-town.

So what do you think of this idea?

If this doesn't work then we could tweak it or just let the gossip hider live when visiting non-town.

---

As for Kaine as the miller, again we made her that way for flavor reasons and I really like those flavor reasons so if we really must have her be a foil for someone I proposed making Neun at least 1 alignment shot but he's still a sleepwalker.

 

[Verelios]

That's an interesting idea, giving the hider a counter. Hmmm, is it visible to them? I'd assume not or there wouldn't be any point to it. 3 also seems like a somewhat fair number given the player count.

 

[lokiduck]

You are right that it might be a good idea to not tell the player how many non-towns they can encounter before death as that'd make it too easy to pinpoint out of the people he talked to how many are scum.

However, would concealing the number be considered Bastard?

 

[lokiduck]

Admittedly a bastard game would have fit Nier better than another game types XD but we can always humor that if we ever make a sequel 8D

 

[Verelios]

Ummm, I don't think that'll make it bastard. If we tell them that they'll die hiding behind a certain amount of shade then that should be enough information without disadvantaging them.

 

[lokiduck]

Ummm, I don't think that'll make it bastard. If we tell them that they'll die hiding behind a certain amount of shade then that should be enough information without disadvantaging them.

True, though we should probably avoid calling them specifically shade since that'd give away what flavor the mafia team is. XD

In either case saying "Be careful because if you dream with a certain amount of non-town players you will die" should suffice.

 

[lokiduck]

It also will cause the dreamer to be careful about who they pick and make them want to make sure they input something before day end.

Just imagine planning to submit your request only to have the day Turbo and someone is picked at random for you LOL

In someway our Hammerer is a foil for the gossip if they are lazy on sending the request since Jaykob will automatically hammer someone one away to turbo.

 

[lokiduck]

I also realized that having the hider have a three strikes and your out thing is that there is a high chance he might die the same night someone else does just because he talks with the third non-town and mafia happens to get a NK. Now there's a chance of mafia not succeeding since we have a doc and a town Roleblocker, but if the bodyguard jumps in someone's place then we are getting a corpse with the hider so people may just think he was killed with them and not because his last conversation partner with scum. This can also happen actually if he happens to die the same night Kaine/Facade King kills someone or Nier also gets killed besides the NK target because the Hunter found him correctly.

Imagine the gossip hider chatting with non-town on accident only to get killed because that's the night the vig decides to take them out. XD

Additionally, because he's a gossip hider he will not be as willing to discuss who he plans to gossip with as that's basically asking for him to die with his partner if the doc isn't still around at that point.

 

[lokiduck]

Additionally I remembered that we gave Nier a self-protect shot that gets used up automatically if he is targeted even if it's just the doc or Motion detector targeting him. I guess if the Gretal correctly guess the Nier Player that shot protects him one time?

I was concerned that'd be unfair to the mafia player since they'd think the player isn't Nier, but the chances are pretty fucking high that Nier would lose his self protect pretty fucking fast since we got a lot of non-life-threatening night actions (Role Fish, Fish Vender, Gossip Hider, Sleepwalker, Motion Detector, roleblocker, doc, bodyguard, Roc's facade check) not to mention all of the mafia powers and the two town vig shots, so chances are high that self protect will be useless LOL which seems perfect since town has a lot of defenses anyways.

Plus we'll notify Nier when his shot is used so just imagine his player getting "You got a fish! It was delicious" the same night he gets a "Your self-protect shot was used." in a way he basically has a one time self motion detect meaning that if he is hit by anyone else than the fish vender he won't even know what happened to him.

In either case, I feel bad for the motion detector and I hope they live a long time just to deal with all these Night actions LOL. All these actions is why I like the idea of them having several shots instead of just 1 or two :p

 

[Verelios]

I also realized that having the hider have a three strikes and your out thing is that there is a high chance he might die the same night someone else does just because he talks with the third non-town and mafia happens to get a NK. Now there's a chance of mafia not succeeding since we have a doc and a town Roleblocker, but if the bodyguard jumps in someone's place then we are getting a corpse with the hider so people may just think he was killed with them and not because his last conversation partner with scum. This can also happen actually if he happens to die the same night Kaine/Facade King kills someone or Nier also gets killed besides the NK target because the Hunter found him correctly.

Imagine the gossip hider chatting with non-town on accident only to get killed because that's the night the vig decides to take them out. XD

Additionally, because he's a gossip hider he will not be as willing to discuss who he plans to gossip with as that's basically asking for him to die with his partner if the doc isn't still around at that point.

That sounds like an interesting sequence of events though.

About Nier, I don't think it's really a problem because like you said it depends heavily on who targets who N1. I'm not worried about it.

 

[lokiduck]

Yep, the advantage of this is all it means is that when he dies his chatting partners won't automatically be suspects because people might assume he was chatting with whoever gets killed. I honestly can't wait to see how the gossip hider players their role either way.

Yeah I'm not too concerned about Nier either. if scum happens to target him first with that Nier Check then eventually they'll try again later.

 

[lokiduck]

@Geno @OceanicAir

I know you gentlemen are busy so feel free to take your time responding to this, but what do you think of my proposal for the gossip hider so as to make him less of a greenchecker. Also @Verelios option 3 is an idea I had.

My proposals are:
1. We change it to him dying if he dreams with 3 non-town (said number required being hidden from him so he can't just tell town so they know how many non-townies to look for even though technically 3 of those 7 non-town are our miller and the two neutrals) so everyone he talks and lives after with don't automatically get green checked or persecuted upon his death.

2. We remove the "dies when dreaming with non-town clause al together turning him back into a communication roll that is untargetable. This makes it unfair to scum, but it also prevents him from completely becoming the alignment cop.

3. We change it that he is targetable if he dreams with non-town. If with town he can only die if they do. If with non-town he is open to being the NK target and can be targeted by other actions. The issue here is that if the MD or role fisher gets results on him and tell town, then he knows he chatted with non-town so maybe we should only make it that he can only be NK'd when dreaming with non-town.

These are my suggestions for making the gossip hider less of an accidental alignment cop while still having the miller serve as a foil for a town power (at least options 2 or 3 are).

Over all I feel like most of our roster is looking pretty good and balanced so this is probably the last hurdle we need to get over before we can move on.

Of course if you have any suggestions, concerns, or see another problem then please let me know.

I really want to get writing the flavor stuff but we need to finish this phase first. c:

 

[Verelios]

I suppose we can swing 3 and it'll go a long way into giving scum more options, but the role seems pretty technical at the moment. It makes me wonder how long the PM is going to be, ha.

 

[Verelios]

I ultimately like option 1 best if we're considering.

 

[lokiduck]

I suppose we can swing 3 and it'll go a long way into giving scum more options, but the role seems pretty technical at the moment. It makes me wonder how long the PM is going to be, ha.

Yeah I agree that if we can swing option 1 we should otherwise we should do 3. I kind of like the idea though that he's only susceptible to a NK if he's with non-town instead of all night actions as it'll keep him from being able to red check someone because an investigative power mentions getting a read on him.

I don't think the PM won't be that long though XD

"Hailing from a sleepy little town that inhabitants are made to sleep all the time, you are pretty well rested but you are also an expert at sleeping anywhere, even in a weird situation like this.

You are the Mayor of the Forest of Myth and are a Gossip Hider.

You are aligned with the Ones Struggling To Live in a Dying World (That is TOWN).

You when all the threats to town are eliminated.

Every night you must submit the command DREAM WITH: Name before end of the day phase to hide in the dreams of that player that night. However, if you do not submit a command before the night phase, one player will be selected at random.

During the night phase, all night actions will not work on you and you will have a gossip chat with the other player. If the player you are dreaming with dies, you will as well. However, sharing a dream can be dangerous,

OPTION 1 text: as a result if you dream with too many non-town players you will die.
or
OPTION 2 Text: as a result, if you dream with a non-town you will be targetable by a kill action.

Sweet dreams out there!"

 

[lokiduck]

BTW how I have mentally been preparong the Role PMs to look is:
Basic flavor text descriptor sentence.

Name of flavor and role.

Alignment info. We can change the name of town but I wanted something that fits the characters but doesn't automatically reveal that town = non shades and Kaine, scum = Shades. We can figure out some fun stuff for the neutrals and mafia as well XD

Description of role.

Cute end phrase related to character? (Role Fisher will get "Good luck fishing out there!" Hans can have "Good luck delivering mail out there!")

 

[Verelios]

That's a good format for role pms, I like it.

 

[lokiduck]

Thanks. i feel like if we keep the flavor short and sweet it'll keep me from over doing it but will also prevent going too much into spoiler territory since want to set this before the end of part 1.

Mind you we already have some spoilers like Freya's role being related to how she dies XD but hey no one will know that XD

My favorite flavors are going to be the ones for minor characters though becuase I get to write shit like "You may be stuck in a weird foggy void but that isn't going to stop you from doing your job and delivering the mail!" For Hans the mailman XD Also feeling pretty smug about my "sleepy little village" line describing the forest of myth XD

 

[lokiduck]

I spent a good while writing up mock flavor stuff for each role (will share when we move on to that phase), but it gave me some ideas.

1. Are we still having Nier being a limited JOAT where he gets one ability each night? If so what order does he get them or should it be RNG?

2. Since Neun is a sleepwalker, my clear plan is to send him a random piece of text about who he visited that has no relevance to the game. The plan is to use this list of Facade rules https://nier.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Facade and send him stuff like "The person you visited has broke rule 2: You have to wear a mask." or "The person you visited is a perfect role model for rule 56,908: In order to strengthen a community solidarity, you must interact with others on a regular basis." or "This person was closed to breaking rule Rule 8,614 Parents cannot purchase food for their children's birthday feasts." while avoiding any rules that might seem too much like being related to the game.

The rules in question will be unrelated to the person in question being a role like Roc could get that second one just as much a a role like Nier. I'm doing this purely because I want to give myself more work :p.

I also really want to use rule 2,078. XD

3. It's great that we decided to make it that Hansel and Gretel get a power up if the other dies. In the actual game Hansel was killed in part 1 so Gretel took on Nier in part 2 and was more powered up. It also fits why Gretel is a hunter looking for him, since in the flavor Hansel nearly died and is in fact close to death, but wants to help Gretel and the Shadowlord.

However, did we ever fully agree on what abilities they'd get. I believe the idea was that Gretel would get a ninja or strong shot but i don't think we decided on what to give them or even what to give Hansel. Any suggestions?

 

[Verelios]

1. If we keep that then he should always get the protect as a starting slot and have the rest be RNG every night.

2. Haha, rule 27, 229 is pretty good too. We could even put in random trivia for the fisherman too.

3. Hm. Good point. We could always make it so they get a one shot of each others powers but that seems too normal. What do you have in mind on the crazy scale?

 

[lokiduck]

1. If we keep that then he should always get the protect as a starting slot and have the rest be RNG every night.

2. Haha, rule 27, 229 is pretty good too. We could even put in random trivia for the fisherman too.

3. Hm. Good point. We could always make it so they get a one shot of each others powers but that seems too normal. What do you have in mind on the crazy scale?

1. LOL so basically the plan is to have him have the one good power right away (which does seem fair actually) and then he gets the two more useless powers (Double Vote and Message) randomly XD Seems legit. XD

Admittedly i kind of want to give him another mostly useless power that wouldn't be useful but I also like that our JOATS both have 3 skills.

2. Yeah I like 27, 299 too, I'll probably include all the good ones first so we at least have some fun stuff before Neun dies possibly XD We could take turns picking the rules to send :O

As for you the Fisherman :o I hadn't thought of that, I'm pretty sure the wiki might actually have a list of all the fish in the game LOL.

So anytime he fails he'll get one of them randomly when his excitement being based on how rare the fish is XD Meanwhile the player will probably be annoyed. XD

3. I kind of idea the idea of them getting a shot of each others powers, but maybe they get a little extra? As expressed before by OA I believe, the concern is that if Shadowlord dies, scum is kind of screwed, so maybe we could consider giving Hansel or Gretel (whoever lives) a shot similar to SL's powers. Gretel could get the Strong shot (speaking of which i think i remember reading that if strong shots are used on a bodyguard the protected party dies with the guard? at which case scum having possibly access to two of them might make town be pretty dangerous?)

As for Hansel he could get the switch since that basically throws off results and would work like protecting.

Basically:

Hansel gets a switch and one chance to insta kill Nier (usless if nier is dead so maybe he should get something else?)
Gretel gets a strong kill and a one roleblock.

Over all i like Gretel's powers more because that one more roleblock might be good for scum actually. If Hansel dies, town will find out he's a RB and think the scum one is dead so when someone gets RB'd the next night they might be thinking there are other threats like an anti-town neutral or may even think that Emile is said neutral with the RB if his player has claimed at that point.

One thing about Hansel and Gretel knowing they inherit more powers upon one's death (since I assume we have to at least say that "If X dies you will unlock further abilities," I don't believe we have to say what powers right?) this might lead to the scum team focusing their bussing efforts on one of those two players LOL.

 

[Verelios]

Two Strong kills on a team sound pretty unbalanced. Does it have to be a strong kill for Gretel? Hmm, would a regular shot be too weak?

Otherwise I like the division of scum powers. And yeah, keeping what powers they get a mystery sounds very fun.

 

[lokiduck]

Two Strong kills on a team sound pretty unbalanced. Does it have to be a strong kill for Gretel? Hmm, would a regular shot be too weak?

Otherwise I like the division of scum powers. And yeah, keeping what powers they get a mystery sounds very fun.

If a second strong shot is too unbalanced then why not they get one extra kill (basically a scum vig shot). Hansel should keep that one Nier kill shot so that way Scum doesn't get two extra kills LOL

Option B is an extra ninja kill, but if the MD runs out of shots before then it's basically useless. XD I like the idea of a vig kill though as that gives scum their regular kill that has to deal with all of town's protections (1 self protect, the bodyguard until she dies, the doc until he dies, the town RBer) Gretel's Nier kill that might kill one player (one extra attempt if Gretel dies before Hansel), and this vig kill that also me be blocked. XD

With the change it'd be:

Hansel: Gets 1 switch and a 1 Nier Kill shot (only works if player is Nier even if he's protected unless he still has a self protect)
Gretel: Gets 1 vig shot and 1 roleblock shot.

Sound good?

 

[Verelios]

Sounds good! And I thought about the ninja shot too but it seemed not very useful midgame, ha.

 

[lokiduck]

Sounds good! And I thought about the ninja shot too but it seemed not very useful midgame, ha.

Agreed. That Nier shot will be useless if Nier is already dead when Gretel dies, but it seems fair. It'd be amusing if the Nier player outs them self to kill Gretel only to get killed that night even with the doc healing him. XD

I guess the alternative is changing it to a different type if Nier is dead but we can't make things too easy for Scum.

In either case it sounds like all we need to do is hear from Geno and OA.

 

[Geno]

Hansel: Gets 1 switch and a 1 Nier Kill shot (only works if player is Nier even if he's protected unless he still has a self protect)
Gretel: Gets 1 vig shot and 1 roleblock shot.

I like the changes. Are there any changes yet to be done? Sorry again I'm a bit behind

 

[Verelios]

Then I think it's only OA.

 

[lokiduck]

I like the changes. Are there any changes yet to be done? Sorry again I'm a bit behind

-We were debating how to change the gossip hider because OA thinks him dying if he visits non-town makes him too much like a cop because he green checks anyone he visits and lives with.

I had a few proposals on how to handle it in this post:

@Geno @OceanicAir

I know you gentlemen are busy so feel free to take your time responding to this, but what do you think of my proposal for the gossip hider so as to make him less of a greenchecker. Also @Verelios option 3 is an idea I had.

My proposals are:
1. We change it to him dying if he dreams with 3 non-town (said number required being hidden from him so he can't just tell town so they know how many non-townies to look for even though technically 3 of those 7 non-town are our miller and the two neutrals) so everyone he talks and lives after with don't automatically get green checked or persecuted upon his death.

2. We remove the "dies when dreaming with non-town clause al together turning him back into a communication roll that is untargetable. This makes it unfair to scum, but it also prevents him from completely becoming the alignment cop.

3. We change it that he is targetable if he dreams with non-town. If with town he can only die if they do. If with non-town he is open to being the NK target and can be targeted by other actions. The issue here is that if the MD or role fisher gets results on him and tell town, then he knows he chatted with non-town so maybe we should only make it that he can only be NK'd when dreaming with non-town.

These are my suggestions for making the gossip hider less of an accidental alignment cop while still having the miller serve as a foil for a town power (at least options 2 or 3 are).

Over all I feel like most of our roster is looking pretty good and balanced so this is probably the last hurdle we need to get over before we can move on.

Of course if you have any suggestions, concerns, or see another problem then please let me know.

I really want to get writing the flavor stuff but we need to finish this phase first. c:

Personally I was a bigger fan of proposal 1 or 3. 3 is the best way to not make him a cop but it makes him harder to kill again with one exception, while 1 still causes him to be a cop, but a much weaker one.

We won't disclose in the PM how many non-towns it'll take to kill him so town would have to debate how many of his chat partners were scum which again might give scum some more leanway in at the very least they can bus one partner while maybe another gets away scot free.

- We also debated about Nier's powers as a JOAT a bit. He basically has one useful voting power, a usless message power to confuse the mailman, and a self protect which might make him annoying to scum especially if Gretel correctly guesses him, but both Vere and I agreed that most likely the Self protect will be wasted because there are a ton of night powers and the shot is used up after any action is used on that player.

It's basically a very weak BP that serves more as a self motion detect.

 

[Verelios]

I like the changes. Are there any changes yet to be done? Sorry again I'm a bit behind

I don't believe so, unless OA thinks there's a balance issue.

 

[lokiduck]

Question: If Gretel kills Nier the night that Fyra protects Nier (this is also assuming his Self Protect shot was used up), does Fyra die too?

She dies if her target is targeted, and in this case he would. I also heard that strong shots can sometimes kill both the BG and their target and I was wondering if that is something that can happen in this community?

 

[Verelios]

Question: If Gretel kills Nier the night that Fyra protects Nier (this is also assuming his Self Protect shot was used up), does Fyra die too?

She dies if her target is targeted, and in this case he would. I also heard that strong shots can sometimes kill both the BG and their target and I was wondering if that is something that can happen in this community?

Hm. Um. Yeah, I'm going to say it's like an armor piercing round that goes through Fyra to Nier and kills them both, since Nier technically dies regardless of protection.

 

[lokiduck]

Hm. Um. Yeah, I'm going to say it's like an armor piercing round that goes through Fyra to Nier and kills them both, since Nier technically dies regardless of protection.

I'll wait till the others chip in, but this sounds about right.

The idea is that Gretel is so vengeful after what happened to Hansel that they'll do anything to cut through Nier which is why they can kill Nier even with protection (unless his self protect is still active I guess???)

However, that'd be pretty brutal if Gretel found Nier the night the gossip hider was chatting with either Nier or Fyra because that'd be 3 town dead XD

 

[lokiduck]

That also works because basically it serves as the second albeit situational counter to the doc and BG. It's not over powered though because it only works on one player who has to be correctly found and not have his SP active.

If the Vigs or town take Nier out, then scum doesn't even get to use it. XD

 

[Geno]

Then I'd say 1 but lower the count to 2 from 3. Although I'd still say the role isn't that weak even at 1.

 

[lokiduck]

Then I'd say 1 but lower the count to 2 from 3. Although I'd still say the role isn't that weak even at 1.

2 seems like a reasonable number and it's less predictable.

The problem with it being at 1 is that if anyone knows who he was going to visit that night and he was the only victim that night, then people will automatically know his partner was scum and on the flip side every time he lives he can green check whoever he talked to. Now there is a miller involved, but he has a 36% chance of hitting her (or any other non-town) so she isn't much of a counter in this case.

By having it being 1+ non-town it means that any number of people he visited contributed in killing him and town will never know what the total number was (hell they may even assume it was 3).

Now in case where everyone knows who the GH visited either because he trusted someone he chatted with or he told the thread incase he died (obviously not his next chat target since that's asking them to get NK'd), having it be 1+ gives scum more wiggle room.

In a 1+ scenario, Kaine has a better chance of becoming a foil since there will be possibly more nights he'll have a night chat and might pick her. This means she serves as a red herring if the GH dies to his mechanic (players will assume so if he is the only death one night, if anyone else like Nier or the vig shot dies this may cover him up dying to this mechanic.) as she'd be in the list of suspects if he visited her. Her claim will be hard to prove since no one will claim AC (unless scum does of course) so people might mislunch her.

This mechanic put heat on the neutrals when it was just 1, but it will occur even more so with 1+ because if they are one of the peeps he visited, they contributed to his death and this may force them to have to figure a way out of the situation. However, if the pool of suspects is a reasonable size it isn't a complete death sentence as well.

The main reason to do 1+ is to make GH less of a cop, but to also give non-town players an out if they are smart.

Things also get more complicated if no one knows who he visited as scum can always withhold that he visited them.

However, having it be 2 seems like a reasonable number as it won't make this killing him impossible but still gives scum some wiggle room as I'll show below.

 

[lokiduck]

For instance:

-In Scenario 1: GH visits 4 players before dying and being the only death that night.

2 of those people are scum. In this case the two scummates can try to convince town that the number to kill him is 2, and get the two townies lunched, or they can bus one of them maybe even claim that it's 3. This may not keep them alive, but if they bus Hansel or Gretel the other will get a power buff that can use to make help work things in their favor.

-In Scenario 2: same 4 people but one is Kaine/a neutral and the other is mafia.

The mafia player can try to get the neutral/Kaine lunched and people will believe that they contributed upon their death. This mafia player might be able to get one of the other townies mislunched as well before inevitably getting lunched.

-In Scenario 3: No one knows who he visited.

Scum can hide completely, try some crazy gambit.

In Scenario 4: Someone else died with him.

Scum can pass this off as his partner being the NK target or killed by someone else (bonus if they were killed by a vig, the factional kill failing). If more than 2 people die such as Nier or the NK and a Vig kill as well that'll make it even more confusing.

In Scenario 5: He visits two non-townies he announced his plans to do so during the day phase being completely convinced these two were scum.

Worse case scenario if both are Mafia. Scum bus claiming it was just 1 or they try some crazy gambit. If one of the non-townies is a neutral or the miller than they try to stick them with the blame but hey at least three mafia are left either way.

In Scenario 6: Somehow GH has lived a long ass time in this game and has visited a huge variety of people. He dies and is the only death that night.

Pretty impossibly because he has a 36% chance of hitting non-town as there are 7 non-townies in the game (1 miller, 2 neutral, 4 mafia), but all this causes is a huge list of suspects to go over with possibly only one mafia member in the group. If a mafia member or neutral has died previously, they can stick them with the blame for part of it. The GH probably??? won't make it to Endgame anyways, so there's no concern this will actually help them find the last scum as it might be hard to know all the people he has visited.

In Scenario 7: GH was convinced someone was scum and so visited them twice and one town read person (since he can't hide behind someone consecutively) to prove it.

This person is fucked but it'd be hilarious if it's Kaine.

 

[lokiduck]

SOOOOOO Guys... How's it going?

 

[Geno]

SOOOOOO Guys... How's it going?

I was waiting for OA tbh

 

[lokiduck]

I was waiting for OA tbh

Then I guess we should tag him again :P

 

[lokiduck]

So Vere's busy with a game right now plus the holidays going on, but @OceanicAir Is there anything else do you think we need to change or can we move on the the next phase?

 

[OceanicAir]

OK, I was looking at some other guidelines for what people would do for role madness games. And the main thing I saw was whether at the beginning of D1 if everyone decided to roleclaim would the game fall apart. So as long as there are some good fake claims especially character-wise then it should be fine.

 

[lokiduck]

OK, I was looking at some other guidelines for what people would do for role madness games. And the main thing I saw was whether at the beginning of D1 if everyone decided to roleclaim would the game fall apart. So as long as there are some good fake claims especially character-wise then it should be fine.

As of right now we only have fake names for them to claim though we were humoring rolls to claim too. Since we have a miller without an actual alignment cop one fake claim being alignment cop might be pretty good, but then we'd have to figure out the other ones especially since i don't think it'd match one of the fake names anyway.

We were really scraping the end of the barrel looking for some fake claims as they are currently:

-Gideon
-Mayor of the Aerie
-The Blacksmith in Seafront
-The Tavern Owner in Home Town (Nier's Home town doesn't have a name so it's called Home Town, Your Home Town, or the Village)

Gideon was the only named character we left out (besides Devola, Popola, and Emil's Sister) due to this being set pre-time skip when he's younger, but we figured the others would be okay since we have the Fishernam, Mayor of the Forest of Myth, and even the King of Facade as names so if one of these players backs them up (or dies) by saying their character doesn't have a name the mafia players should be good.

Admittedly Gideon is the only good cover we have as even Jaykob's flavor will say he wants to find his brother implying he's in the game, but the others might be fine as well.

Also to help with their covers we should have the generic named characters in a similar way such as calling the Role Fisher as "The Fisherman in Seafront"

 

[OceanicAir]

Yeah, that last point would be good. Because you don't want people to be solving the game via the game's wiki instead of by playing Mafia.

Would the cover names have credible paths to making a fake claim? Since a lot of these roles seem tightly intertwined with their names.

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah, that last point would be good. Because you don't want people to be solving the game via the game's wiki instead of by playing Mafia.

We literally just had Z-Beat asking in Stardew what people's flavor info was just to try and figure out if someone was mafia so it's def good if we make the names and pms similar for mafia as it will be for town.

My plan I'm already generating is that we should give mafia fake flavor to go with their fake claims they use so if someone does ask, they have something to use as a reference point, this would be fair since I want to do a quick summary of each characters flavor anyways to help players understand their character. XD

Would the cover names have credible paths to making a fake claim? Since a lot of these roles seem tightly intertwined with their names.

As for this... I'm kind of wondering if we should give them fake powers to claim actually. Originally i was just goign to let the mafia players figure it out meaning that if they can't figure out a suitable fake claim they'll bite it, but maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to handle this since you have a point about how much the powers intertwine.

The main question then is what powers would we give a blacksmith, a mayor, a little boy of a blacksmith, and a tavern owner. XD

Now that I think of it, it might be smart for the scum role blocker and role cop to claim fruit vender just in case Weiss catches them visiting someone So having the tavern owner's fake claim be a "drink vender" might work. The blacksmith could have something similar and considering how many useless roles we have in the game, maybe it wouldn't be too weird? If one was found out to be scum it'd make the actual town claims suspicious.

Since Gideon hates robots because they killed his mom maybe he could claim to be a "robot checker" where he's able to ask the mods if a player is a robot or not each night. This would clue them in that a robot is in the game, but it might freak out the Kalil and beepy player if the mafia actually roleclaims this power. Not sure if this would be a good idea though.

Anyways @Verelios @Geno do you think we should make fake powers to go with the fake claims or should we let mafia fend for themselves? We could always just have a suggestion list of fake power claims like they did in Life is Strange mafia.

 

[Verelios]

I feel like making fake powers for scum goes too far in mafia's favor. The interesting dynamic between scum and town is always going to be how much one side can use their limited information to gain an advantage in the game, and giving scum appropriate PRs seems to detract from that. I'm all on board giving them reasonable flavor though, for the people who haven't played Nier before or don't remember much about the characters. That seems fair.

 

[lokiduck]

I feel like making fake powers for scum goes too far in mafia's favor. The interesting dynamic between scum and town is always going to be how much one side can use their limited information to gain an advantage in the game, and giving scum appropriate PRs seems to detract from that. I'm all on board giving them reasonable flavor though, for the people who haven't played Nier before or don't remember much about the characters. That seems fair.

Yeah that makes sense for sure.

Giving them flavor and having the generic names match for both fake claims and town ones seems fair, but we should let mafia fend for themselves a bit so it's fair to town a bit. If we make it too easy for them to claim, then it'll be harder for them to be found out.

When we get to writing the role PMs (I have some rough drafts written >>) we can figure out the flavor for the fake claims.

 

[Verelios]

Yeah that makes sense for sure.

Giving them flavor and having the generic names match for both fake claims and town ones seems fair, but we should let mafia fend for themselves a bit so it's fair to town a bit. If we make it too easy for them to claim, then it'll be harder for them to be found out.

When we get to writing the role PMs (I have some rough drafts written >>) we can figure out the flavor for the fake claims.

This sounds good to me.

 

[lokiduck]

Okay then, if Geno and OA are good with our fake claims stuff then we are probably done here.

 

[Geno]

I'm fine with either tbh. I think we need to see the PM's and then we're done. Sheesh this took long, sorry about that guys.

 

[lokiduck]

I'm fine with either tbh. I think we need to see the PM's and then we're done. Sheesh this took long, sorry about that guys.

It's okay, everyone is busy and while I do wish somethings had moved along a little faster, It's probably for the best we took our time with this.

How do we go about taking care of the PM's? Should I start a new thread for it specifically? I could make it so that each post is a PM then have you guys tell me how to edit it as we need to. XD

 

[OceanicAir]

It doesn't make a difference in how you do it imo. Here, a Google sheet, whatever is fine with me!

 

[lokiduck]

Okay then. I'm taking care of something in my mobile gacha but I can totally get the thread started.

 

[lokiduck]

Actually on second thought I'm just going to do a google doc and add the link here. That way you guys can edit as you see fit I guess???

 

[lokiduck]

Eh I'll do both. I'm making a thread for discussing the PMs with a link to the doc.