Design & discussion

Atheon

Time's Conflux
miketruk303
Member



Oct 15 2017 at 3:27pm

BUCK BUMBLE MAFIA- Well doesn’t that just beetle all

Well it’s the future and humanity is extinct (FINALLY) because of pollution and other global catastrophies, Bees, Wasps and Beetles have mutated and have found a rightful spot on top of the foodchain (whether it’s deserved is another discussion to be had). The bees are taking care of the enviroment and making sure it’s reformed or some shit like that (damn hippies) meanwhile beetles and wasps are making trouble as is beetles and wasps are wont to do. It’s up to Buck Bumble and bee friends to stamp out the wasps and beetles for once and all.

TOWN: Bees

Roles:

Vigilante *3-shot*

Role Blocker

Chat Blocker

Commuter *even day actions

Lovers

Messager


Wasps and Beetles: Scum


Hider *1-shot Roleblocker

JOAT

Tracker *non consecutively*

Witcher

Framer

Serial Killer



I haven't thought about flavour text yet because I'm waiting for y'all to rip this shit apart and see what's good and what's not good
 
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Atheon

Time's Conflux
eltopodelgaf
Member

Co-star of my Topo/Roy fanfiction



Oct 16 2017 at 2:34pm

Love the theme. Could you maybe make a proper spec sheet please? I'm not quite sure about how many roles there are in total of each.

Something along the lines of:
Town
Role A - 1
Role B - 1
Role C - 1
Role D - 2
Common - X

Scum
Role F - 1
Role G - 1
Role H - 1

Neutral
Role M - 1
Role N - 1

Something like that would help a lot.
 

Atheon

Time's Conflux
miketruk303
Member



Oct 16 2017 at 2:41pm

Oct 16 2017 at 2:34pm eltopodelgaf said:
Love the theme. Could you maybe make a proper spec sheet please? I'm not quite sure about how many roles there are in total of each.

Something along the lines of:
Town
Role A - 1
Role B - 1
Role C - 1
Role D - 2
Common - X

Scum
Role F - 1
Role G - 1
Role H - 1

Neutral
Role M - 1
Role N - 1

Something like that would help a lot.

How would I do that? on google docs?
 

Atheon

Time's Conflux
Coppanuva
Member

Graceful Scapegoat

Oct 17 2017 at 1:59pm
Oct 16 2017 at 2:41pm miketruk303 said:
]Oct 16 2017 at 2:34pm eltopodelgaf said:
Love the theme. Could you maybe make a proper spec sheet please? I'm not quite sure about how many roles there are in total of each.

Something along the lines of:
Town
Role A - 1
Role B - 1
Role C - 1
Role D - 2
Common - X

Scum
Role F - 1
Role G - 1
Role H - 1

Neutral
Role M - 1
Role N - 1

Something like that would help a lot.
How would I do that? on google docs?
Yup that would work! Also you should specify what powers the JOAT has specifically. From my understanding it can vary a lot per-game.
 

Atheon

Time's Conflux
miketruk303
Member




Oct 17 2017 at 3:18pm
What purpose would neutrals play in a game like mafia?

I might take out JOAT in the next revision.

I can't do anything too strenuous because I have to work a back to back 7 to close today and tomorrow
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
A REVISION OF THE FIRST DRAFT

BUCK BUMBLE MAFIA

Game Runner notes


Voting will be done by BLIND VOTES Which will be revealed at the end of the phases


6 days/ nights


13 Players =


4 town only voters

4 Power Roles

1 Body Guard

1 Doctor

1 Vigilante

1 Vote Spy



4 Mafia members

1 Bulletproof

1 Arsonist

1 Poisoner

1 Post Restrictor


NEUTRAL

1 Serial Killer (3 Shot)
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Hi hi! No one said to me I was assigned to this design so sorry I couldn't be here before. Now I am! I like the blind voting mechanic, let's make sure Town isn't too damaged from that c:

Could you describe a little how each PR would work/interact with the others? It's still a little hard to see the big picture.

Like, will the Arsonist and the Poisoner bypass the two protective roles from Town? Will they be able to act together with the factional kill?
Is that a complete Bulletproof, or does it have an one-shot modifier?
What does the Post Restrictor do? Impede a player from posting anything, or just forcing them to add a certain rule to their posts?
Can the Bodyguard and the Doctor protect the same player in the next night? If so, that's bad.

Those are just some examples.
 

CaptainNuevo

MDTLA Enthusiast
Staff member
X-Shot Serial Killer seems weird to me as well. I'd have to sit down and see what makes that balanced, but it seems like that's making it much MUCH harder for them to win.
 

El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
X-Shot SK is basically Robin Hood in Archer Mafia. I think the numbers are too far off right now though and with a small game a SK might be too destructive.
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
Hi hi! No one said to me I was assigned to this design so sorry I couldn't be here before. Now I am! I like the blind voting mechanic, let's make sure Town isn't too damaged from that c:

Could you describe a little how each PR would work/interact with the others? It's still a little hard to see the big picture.

Like, will the Arsonist and the Poisoner bypass the two protective roles from Town? Will they be able to act together with the factional kill?
Is that a complete Bulletproof, or does it have an one-shot modifier?
What does the Post Restrictor do? Impede a player from posting anything, or just forcing them to add a certain rule to their posts?
Can the Bodyguard and the Doctor protect the same player in the next night? If so, that's bad.

Those are just some examples.

I believe I can get rid of poisoner if having an arsonist seems a bit redundant.

I think arsonist will be bulletproof but not poisoner, if it's still kept

Post Restrictor will be probably be like have the poster post in haiku until a certain day



I never thought about doctor and bodyguard protecting the same person, is there any restriction I can put on it?
8/4/1 with blind votes seems...imbalanced.

I'm gonna fix this


Should I fix it being a small game?
 

RetroMG

Bergentrukung
Staff member
Okay, so there's plenty to talk about.

First of all, here's a spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19N7jZxkIiCq5f3fLHYxZT6S8oTGY1FrpqZ42TZnhxpI/edit?usp=sharing

So... Okay, there's work to be done. First of all, as Topo pointed out, your scum to town ratio is WAY out of whack. Typically you want the scum team to be 20-25% of the total player base. If you're going to keep this scum team, you need a minimum of 16 players. Given your one neutral, you need to add in at least 3 more town.

Next, I need details on these roles:

Town

Bodyguard: What is different between the Bodyguard and the Doctor? IIRC, a bodyguard protects someone and dies in their place if they are killed. Why do you need a bodyguard AND a doctor? You can do it, but it seems unnecessary.
Doctor: Cool, pretty basic. All I need to know if can the doctor protect themself, and can they protect the same person on consecutive nights. (My suggestion would be yes to the first question, no to the second.)
Vigilante: How many shots? Can they kill on consecutive nights, or is there a limit? There's more to say about this, but we'll hold for a minute.
Vote Spy: I assume they can see who someone's vote is on? Is this a day action? Is it limited? Are you going to be responding this player's PMs constantly, telling them who someone is voting for?

Scum

Bulletproof: How many times can this person be shot?
Arsonist: What is their win condition? Arsonists are often neutral and win if they kill X number of players. If that is not the case, how often can this Arsonist ignite their targets? Are players informed that they are doused? If it is a scum member, does igniting replace the scum night kill?
Poisoner: How does this work? Is it a delayed kill? If so, does it replace the scum night kill?

Okay, you just posted resolving some of these concerns, but I'm going to also point out that a Vig, Serial Killer, Scum kill, AND a possible Arsonist - Your game is going to be a bloodbath. You have too many potential deaths in a single night.
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
Okay, so there's plenty to talk about.

First of all, here's a spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19N7jZxkIiCq5f3fLHYxZT6S8oTGY1FrpqZ42TZnhxpI/edit?usp=sharing

So... Okay, there's work to be done. First of all, as Topo pointed out, your scum to town ratio is WAY out of whack. Typically you want the scum team to be 20-25% of the total player base. If you're going to keep this scum team, you need a minimum of 16 players. Given your one neutral, you need to add in at least 3 more town.

Next, I need details on these roles:

Town

Bodyguard: What is different between the Bodyguard and the Doctor? IIRC, a bodyguard protects someone and dies in their place if they are killed. Why do you need a bodyguard AND a doctor? You can do it, but it seems unnecessary.
Doctor: Cool, pretty basic. All I need to know if can the doctor protect themself, and can they protect the same person on consecutive nights. (My suggestion would be yes to the first question, no to the second.)
Vigilante: How many shots? Can they kill on consecutive nights, or is there a limit? There's more to say about this, but we'll hold for a minute.
Vote Spy: I assume they can see who someone's vote is on? Is this a day action? Is it limited? Are you going to be responding this player's PMs constantly, telling them who someone is voting for?

Scum

Bulletproof: How many times can this person be shot?
Arsonist: What is their win condition? Arsonists are often neutral and win if they kill X number of players. If that is not the case, how often can this Arsonist ignite their targets? Are players informed that they are doused? If it is a scum member, does igniting replace the scum night kill?
Poisoner: How does this work? Is it a delayed kill? If so, does it replace the scum night kill?

Okay, you just posted resolving some of these concerns, but I'm going to also point out that a Vig, Serial Killer, Scum kill, AND a possible Arsonist - Your game is going to be a bloodbath. You have too many potential deaths in a single night.
Boy that spreadshit really did open my eyes to the totality of this problem

Retro I know you're a busy father (congrats on the kid btw) If you could colloborate with me out a bit that'd be nice

I kinda knew I was in over my head
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Asking for Retro's help when you already have 3 reviewers ready to help you is kind of disrespectful; I look at this thread at least once per day and if you ever need us to take a look, just @ us on Discord.

Since you said an Arsonist and a Poisoner can be redundant, let's start by removing the Poisoner and adding an Ordinary Town in that sheet, improving the town to scum ratio.

For your question about the Doctor and the Bodyguard, you can say that they cannot target themselves, cannot target each other, and also the Doctor cannot target the same player on consecutive nights.

And finally, we asked a lot of questions about the roles in your game; answer them in the "Notes" column of the sheet with your thoughts. We can adjust the notes later, but we need them to begin balancing.
 
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RetroMG

Bergentrukung
Staff member
Retro I know you're a busy father (congrats on the kid btw) If you could colloborate with me out a bit that'd be nice

I kinda knew I was in over my head
Everyone has to start somewhere, and you've got a start. Now, refine it based on the suggestions I gave, and keep refining it with Bowlie, Coppa and Topo. To Bowlie's point, you've got a set of really good reviewers, and they'll steer you right. I'll keep an eye on the thread and help where I can, but these are some of our best. Believe me, they'll do a better job than I will.
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
Does there need to be a neutral?

I feel this is tripping me up atm

E: Also does there need to be mafia voters only as well?
 

RetroMG

Bergentrukung
Staff member
There doesn't NEED to be a neutral, no. We just kind of habitually put them in. If you want one, do it. If not, that's fine.

I don't understand your second question. Are you asking if you should have ordinary mafia? (Which are usually called Goons.)

If so, the answer is... Maybe. I would not ADD any players to the scum team, but if you think they are too powerful, you could make one a goon. But there is no quota for that. We've had many games where all of the scum had abilities.
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
BUCK BUMBLE MAFIA

Game Runner notes


There will be a blind ballot that will be revealed at the end of the day

6 days/ nights



4 town only voters

4 Power Roles

1 Body Guard

1 Role Cop (3 shot non consecutive)

1 Fire fighter

1 Constable





4 Mafia members

1 Bulletproof

1 Post Restrictor*

1 Arsonist

1 Framer








GAME NOTES


The Post Restrictor must restrict the target to post only in awful bee puns
 

El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
1. I think role explanations would be helpful. I'm assuming the Firefighter is a role that protects from the Arsonist, the Framer makes someone turn up as scum if investigated by the Cop and the Constable is someone who checks for night actions?
2. Regarding the secret ballot, I think that's a really cool idea, but one we have to think about carefully. How does it change the flow of the game and what information is revealed at the end, i.e. do players get a full vote count (including who voted when for what)?
3. Maybe also think if there are roles that could interact with the secret vote count? I love the idea of the secret ballot, so this is just my personal excitement, but maybe e.g. instead of an Arsonist there's a scum role that can fake vote counts or something like that?
4. Awful bee puns? That's amazing. Love it.
5. The balancing right now is very, very off. Scum have a Framer, a Post Restrictor and (worst case for Town) two kills each night. I prefer a 4:1 distribution, but that's admittedly too conservative. I'll think about it.

But honestly, the only thing bothering me right now is the general balancing. The secret ballot could be a bad idea, but I just love it.
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
Constable is a vote utility for town

and Firefighter is the opposite of Arsonist

An arsonist may douse their target with gasoline but a firefighter may put it out before the target is set on fire

Check Ouro's guide for more details

I think I'll keep the post restrictor for now

The problem I keep encountering with designing this game is I don't know how might one ability of town/scum can be offset by the other faction

a fake vote count is interesting idea but I don't know how to manage that
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
I still don't understand what a Constable is, could you explain further what it and all the other roles do? It would help us a lot.

Why do you have a Bulletproof on the Mafia team, if no one in Town can, apparently, kill at night? Did you mean Lynchproof, a player that does not get lynched during a day phase?
 
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Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Okay, thanks for explaining!

So right now, Mafia has two roles that do not fit the current design:

A Bulletproof, when Town has no methods of killing someone at night;
A Framer, when Town does not have an Alignment Cop, only a Role Cop.

What would the Framer do in this situation? Maybe the Framer could paint the targeted person as "Godfather", so the Role Cop could see that and think they are part of the Mafia team. But I don't like this alternative, because the Framer and the Role Cop aren't really counters to each other.

We should aim to correct these two before moving forward.
 

El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
I think it's fine to have a Bulletproof scum as sort of a misdirection, if that was the intention.
As for the Framer, yeah, didn't even notice that. I'm assuming he meant "Town XYZ" would be the result and else "Scum XYZ"?
 
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Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
I still don't understand what a Constable is, could you explain further what it and all the other roles do? It would help us a lot.

Why do you have a Bulletproof on the Mafia team, if no one in Town can, apparently, kill at night? Did you mean Lynchproof, a player that does not get lynched during a day phase?

Yes that's what I meant by bulletproof

I think I will change Framer in the next revision
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
Apologies for the dereliction of duties

I've been kinda going through some things

but I will look it into this either tonight or tommorrow

(depending on when I'm sober and lucid enough)​
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
BUCK BUMBLE MAFIA

Game Runner notes


There will be a blind ballot that will be revealed at the end of the day

6 days/ nights



4 town only voters

4 Power Roles

1 Body Guard

1 Role Cop (3 shot non consecutive)

1 Fire fighter

1 Constable





4 Mafia members

1 Bulletproof

1 Post Restrictor*

1 Arsonist

1 Trouble Maker








GAME NOTES


The Post Restrictor must restrict the target to post only in awful bee puns in haiku
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Between the Trouble Maker and the blind votes (and on a smaller scale, the Post Restrictor), I think this game will just not be fun for Town. People need to enjoy playing your game, and these can be frustrating mechanics to deal with.
 
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Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Mafia is already powerful holding a third of the (blind) votes, a Lynchproof, and an Arsonist that can kill multiple people in a single Night.
I'll say just remove the Trouble Maker role and leave 3 scum vs. 8 town
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
I will change the mafia voters only and the post restrictor will probably be gone as well, the more I think about the worst that idea gets tbh

Wouldn't 3 scum vs 8 town be kinda overpowered for Town?
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Just in terms of numbers and game length? I don't think so, but maybe you two can check if I'm sound here.

For Town to win, Scum needs to be lynched 3 times, and then a fourth one because one of them is Lynchproof.
Furthermore, because you have the blind voting mechanic Scum can potentially lie to alter the outcome of a Day phase and avoid a lynch on them.

That means that Scum can only lose on Day 5, at the earliest.

---

On the other hand, if a Townie gets lynched and another killed every Day and Night, Town can only lose on Night 4 at the earliest.

So there's not a big disparity between Night 4 and Day 5.
 
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El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
8/3 is something I would consider massively favoring scum. I'll have to think about it.
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
I'm getting rid of blind ballot, that sounds like there could be some fuckery that could not be recovered from for town.

I've begun to think that blind ballot was a terrible idea and I have now removed it from the google document

Post Restrictor is getting some tinkering or something tommorrow
 

El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
I wanted to apologize for not having spent much time to review your game lately, Nomad. Work + running my game + Star Wars ate up a lot of time.

I liked the idea of the blind ballot, but I agree that it might have caused too much trouble.
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
I wanted to apologize for not having spent much time to review your game lately, Nomad. Work + running my game + Star Wars ate up a lot of time.

I liked the idea of the blind ballot, but I agree that it might have caused too much trouble.
I've just been in a shitty mood lately with the news and not drinking

this is NOT your fault, I just haven't given a fuck in a long time
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
It's okay, nomads c: Let us know when you make the changes~
 

El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
Don't worry, Nomad. These games are as much about your fun as they are about the players. Take your time and do things at your own pace.
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
I feel like all my idea that I come up either make scum overpowered or make the game not fun at all

The balancing part seems a bit trickier for me

what are some parts of my current game idea can I build upon and what areas of the game can I incorporate other roles into?
 

El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
Oh. Well, I said I was not in a state of mind, but I mean, why not?

Let's see how we can maybe first change the last setup a bit to make it balanced. I think you can ramp up the number of ordinary roles a bit for starters and I think both sides should have an ordinary member. So doing that, maybe we add a Vigilante so the Bulletproof Scum works better and a Doctor so that Town has an additional defense mechanism against the Vigilante, Scum and (maybe) the Arsonist.

STEP 1
--------------------
6 Ordinary Town
1 Role Cop (3 shots)
1 Fire Fighter
1 Constable
1 Doctor (restricted shots)
1 Vigilante


1 Post Restrictor
1 Arsonist
1 Bulletproof / Maybe something more active
1 Ordinary Scum
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
Oh. Well, I said I was not in a state of mind, but I mean, why not?

Let's see how we can maybe first change the last setup a bit to make it balanced. I think you can ramp up the number of ordinary roles a bit for starters and I think both sides should have an ordinary member. So doing that, maybe we add a Vigilante so the Bulletproof Scum works better and a Doctor so that Town has an additional defense mechanism against the Vigilante, Scum and (maybe) the Arsonist.

STEP 1
--------------------
6 Ordinary Town
1 Role Cop (3 shots)
1 Fire Fighter
1 Constable
1 Doctor (restricted shots)
1 Vigilante


1 Post Restrictor
1 Arsonist
1 Bulletproof / Maybe something more active
1 Ordinary Scum
I like this post a whole lot. Could I substitute Bulletproof with poisoner or not?
 

El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
I think Poisoner would be too many kill roles. Let me see if what other roles there are.
 

El Topo

Spanish for "The Topo"
Maybe a Role Blocker (restricted shots) or a Motion Tracker (restricted shots) instead of the Bulletproof Scum?
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
I want to remind that, in nomads' design, it is actually a Lynchproof scum, not Bulletproof.
And the Constable is actually a Motion Tracker.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
I'd make it so the Arsonist can't target someone in the same night Mafia kills someone, because that would elevate the average kills per night. So Mafia can either kill 1 player, or select 1 player to be killed later.

But they would be able to ignite their targeted players alongside the factional kill.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
The Post Restrictor is more or less a mafia goon, as they can't influence the game in any special way.

I would be okay with:
6 Ordinary Townies + 4 Town PRs vs. Post Restrictor, Arsonist, Lynchproof,
though I agree that a more active role for Mafia would be better.

Maybe change the Lynchproof to a Ninja, to counter the Motion Detector in the Town team?
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
6 Ordinary Townie
1 Body Guard (can't protect from fire kills)
1 Role Cop (3-shot, non consecutive)
1 Fire Fighter
1 Motion Detector

---

1 Post Restrictor
1 Arsonist (can't target alongside the factional kill, can ignite alongside the factional kill)
1 Lynchproof
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
6 Ordinary Townie
1 Body Guard (can't protect from fire kills)
1 Role Cop (3-shot, non consecutive)
1 Fire Fighter
1 Motion Detector

---

1 Post Restrictor
1 Arsonist (can't target alongside the factional kill, can ignite alongside the factional kill)
1 Lynchproof
The Post Restrictor is more or less a mafia goon, as they can't influence the game in any special way.

I would be okay with:
6 Ordinary Townies + 4 Town PRs vs. Post Restrictor, Arsonist, Lynchproof,
though I agree that a more active role for Mafia would be better.

Maybe change the Lynchproof to a Ninja, to counter the Motion Detector in the Town team?

I can get with this change
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Okay c:

Possible Final Design:

6 Ordinary Townie
1 Body Guard (can't protect from fire kills)
1 Role Cop (3-shot, non consecutive)
1 Fire Fighter
1 Motion Detector


---

1 Post Restrictor (forces their target to post with bee puns in haiku in the next Day)
1 Arsonist (can't target alongside the factional kill, can ignite alongside the factional kill)
1 Ninja


If you are okay with it, @Nomad Sparkster , then all that's left is writing flavor text and the role PMs \o/
 

Nomad Sparkster

Ask me about Buck Bumble
Okay c:

Possible Final Design:

6 Ordinary Townie
1 Body Guard (can't protect from fire kills)
1 Role Cop (3-shot, non consecutive)
1 Fire Fighter
1 Motion Detector


---

1 Post Restrictor (forces their target to post with bee puns in haiku in the next Day)
1 Arsonist (can't target alongside the factional kill, can ignite alongside the factional kill)
1 Ninja


If you are okay with it, @Nomad Sparkster , then all that's left is writing flavor text and the role PMs \o/

When do you want Flavor text and role PMs?
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
We're just reviewing your game here c:

I'll write that down for now, but that's up to the Scheduling Team once the game is approved and gets a launch date.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Okay, from your question about flavor text I thought the design was ready, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

The Post Restrictor can have any number of shots, but I'll say that they can't target the same person twice through the entire game, as that would be annoying. A new person every Night.

I'm fine with Ninja having 2-shot.
 

RetroMG

Bergentrukung
Staff member
@Nomad Sparkster - I would like to bring on a co-mod to help you with your game, since you have not run a game before. To that end, I've brought Android Sophia into the board.

EDIT: Please note that Sophia is not necessarily going to BE the co-mod, but in looking over the setup she wanted to discuss it.
 
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Android Sophia

Miss Congeniality
@Nomad Sparkster - I would like to bring on a co-mod to help you with your game, since you have not run a game before. To that end, I've brought Android Sophia into the board.

EDIT: Please note that Sophia is not necessarily going to BE the co-mod, but in looking over the setup she wanted to discuss it.
I actually was going to ask more about the Firefighter, but now that I've seen the role PMs it suddenly makes a lot more sense to me.

Lemme look it over a bit more, but I do like what I see now.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Since that doesn't change any mechanics it's okay, but please don't change any meaningful thing in the design or it will go back to the reviewing process; the game has been approved as it is.