MafiEra Season 18 Review |OT| I can't believe Sonic & Tails killed the mafia.

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
Hmm, it seems we are fairly split in how to handle slips in games. It does seem like it should be taken on a case-by-case basis and there's not real 'blanket' rule we can make for this sort of thing. Thankfully this is a very rare occurrence like others have said and we can take more steps to make sure this has a smaller chance of happening in the future. Locking/moving OM threads, maybe even restructuring them a bit, might help with that in the future.

Would something like:
"In general, do not enact forbidden behavior or encourage others to. For example encouraging a player who says them can't vote to "prove it" is not allowed. This can apply to any other restriction a game may have unless stated otherwise by the role or gamerunner"

not do it?


this is my case for "eliminate" too. Although "voted out" would be self explanatory and could also work
'Forbidden behavior' is a bit vague here but I think we can work out something with this and Ephi's suggestion below.
.




Tack it on to 13?

13. Players should not perform moderator actions in game, including using highlight text outside of voting, or issuing day-end/start commands, or calling for the modkill or replacement of another player. While we understand mafia can be an intense experience, and players may wish to discuss in-game moderation decisions with the gamerunner, once a gamerunner makes a decision, please respect it as final.
Encouraging other players to submit false or illegal highlighted game actions is also forbidden.
Players should not submit, or request that others submit, restricted commands for the purposes of proving statuses that affect them or restrictions they may be under.
I'll see what I can do
I grabbed the rules from OM though?
Then it was my bad and I'll fix it o/
 

Zippedpinhead

I'm a wee bit mad at Weemad
related to the review thread but interesting.

In the last game I mentioned that OM and the Fireblend Voting tool have issues with my work computer VPN block list. (OM being listed as forum/unknown and Fireblend's tool giving an alternate control block warning). The last time I checked was before I left work on the end of year holiday (roughly day 2 Mario Kart to today)

However, as of today, when I clicked the link to this thread I was able to make it in. Was something done behind the scenes to remove those tags?
 
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nin1000

Chilean German Madman
First of all i want to say that this season went "kinda" smooth from my point of view.

I also like the idea of just replacing lunch. Never liked it and would happily go for "ejected" i mean Among us did it pretty good.

Regrding slips. It sucks that i was the partner of Salva but not even there to talk to him. I kinda feel responsible in that matter that i was just not there.

In my opinion if you see something outside of the game just tell the Game master and leave. It know it sucks but thats just the best option.
 
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.

How would this gag order even work ?
Well, in my head when I made the suggestion I was simply thinking of... asking people not to talk about it.
I guess it would depend on the players affected.

Is the problem that Bob messed up and posted his Serial Killer Vig Kill Roundup in a non gameplay place?
He pasted it in discord/Video Game Chat/the MafiEra OT.
Whoops.

Let's say one person sees it and reports it and does not think they can play on with that knowledge eating at them. They should sub out. They should accept that's for the best, and be compensated for doing so.

Now, are they one player who really doesn't want to sub out of the game based on their favourite set of things or with their favourite set of people?
Then you could request that you be allowed to play on under a gag order, and be permitted to at Gamerunner discretion.
When I say that, again, I'm just saying you're entering into a verbal contract not to mention what you saw... but unlike the first instance, if you make that request and then divulge the information I would suggest it becomes infraction worthy.


Now let's extrapolate outwards.
Let's say three or four separate nonlinked players saw what Bob accidentally posted into Discord in the dead of night by mistake when he pasted his prewritten post in when he was actually trying to share a Hololive link in excitement that someone read out his superchat. Or let's say he accidentally posted it in the Scheduling Our Weekly Game of Among Us thread. Bob either deleted it himself when he realised, or the players who reported it to Gamerunner X prompted a deletion for the sake of other players.
That sort of replacement would be unworkable.
Then a gag order could be considered and they would be asked to please not discuss it.

And if one of them decides to fudge a reason to push for Bob to get shot into orbit as a result of it, and other people who saw it independently decide to jump on that train for their own slightly fudged reasons then they're all welcome to just so long as they don't divulge what actually made them all so eager to board that train.
Actually divulging that after having been requested not to would be infraction worthy.


Now is the problem instead that Bob messed up and posted his Serial Killer Roundup in the Cosy Tearoom Gossip Chat instead of Vigilante Headquarters?
Eh, whatever.
There's a no edit clause. That shit is staying. It's a gameplay mis-step and the answer will lie in gameplay.

Are the Tearoom residents permitted (or willing) to divulge their existence to the thread at large? If so, eh, they can come clean about what they saw if they want. Or not. Up to them.

Are the Tearoom residents forbidden (or unwilling) to divulge their existence to the thread at large? (a la Cult of Kosmos and how they were forbidden to claim).
Then they have to deal with it as a separate body. They can discuss it amongst themselves, but if they want to get rid of Bob they have to deal with it in a gameplay way. They can coordinate and forge their read lists and dig up everything he ever said and try to make it look scummy and say if anything awful happens to them they *bet* it's because they've admitted they're super suspicious of him.
They can basically do anything except divulge what actually happened and largely have to hope they manage to get him knocked off before he knocks them off.

What stops me from faking a read check to lynch the player of something similar.



he'll even Salvapot tunneling Zeke was enough to make me think Zeke was scum.
There is nothing to stop you.

You can fake your reads.
You can fake a red check.

Gambit away!
If the problem with minor slips is that they colour a player's perception of the game state what is considered a slip?



For example I saw lokiduck had changed OM avatar in HvV2 and started to believe it was likely that she was in a secret chat (which was true), I never outed it while the game was on but it did colour my views, should I have been replaced?



A less comfortable example appeared in HvV3, Nin misgendered me in the cult chat and knowing he was apologetic Geno PM'd me to see if I'd be ok with him continuing to stay in the game (modchat then learnt of the situation and told Geno that Nin had to be replaced). While Geno told me that Nin had misgendered me in a PM I had enough experience via gamerunning to know that was almost certainly BS and Geno knew I did when he saw my posts. Should I have been replaced for the crime of being misgendered?



I'm certainly biased in both these cases but I feel it would be wrong to have replaced me on either one (in fact regardless of whether I'd be given pity via the theorized priority bonus I'm not sure I'd stay in the community for the second example)
The first situation is something intentionally done and that everyone can see, you can infer away.

Now as for the second.

Obviously there is no world in which you should be replaced because someone else misgendered you, that would be a spectacularly gross chain of actions.

But I'm going to answer the question as posed and ask you to please take my word for it that I'm not the arse I might sound like.

If the reason occurred in a "private" chat then nobody in game (that was not in that chat) should have been informed of the reason for the replacement.

Even though you were the one wronged you simply shouldn't have been told why he was replaced out until game end.
Furthermore you also shouldn't have been asked if it was okay for him to play on. Whether or not to treat that instance the same as instances in the main thread isn't actually something that should have been put on you, asking you to decide to what degree an invalidation of yourself is valid doesn't really seem fair.

Plus if you're not told then there's nothing for you to infer game information from anyway and the "...so I know what you just said is bs" situation never even needs to be considered.
 
Also can I join your discord please so I have a chance to prove I'm not really the obnoxious bossy wall posting person I'm currently appearing to be by being a complete nonentity there instead?
If you'd rather wait for now until you're sure Loki dumping me on you folks wasn't some form of curse that's fine of course
 
If the reason occurred in a "private" chat then nobody in game (that was not in that chat) should have been informed of the reason for the replacement.

Even though you were the one wronged you simply shouldn't have been told why he was replaced out until game end.
Furthermore you also shouldn't have been asked if it was okay for him to play on. Whether or not to treat that instance the same as instances in the main thread isn't actually something that should have been put on you, asking you to decide to what degree an invalidation of yourself is valid doesn't really seem fair.


Plus if you're not told then there's nothing for you to infer game information from anyway and the "...so I know what you just said is bs" situation never even needs to be considered.
All the underlined is what our rules actually are, just wasn't followed in this instance.

I have a point which upon rereading my posts I realize I have completely messed up and can't figure a good way to word it so TLDR; Gamerunners need to always follow the rules and making a hard rule on slips is just going to cause more problems than it solves.]

Looking at my posts you may question what at all referenced this and the answer is: I'm trying to get as much animal produce out of my life as possible for my new year resolution and I haven't had tea with milk in days, I'm not coping, send help.
 
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All the underlined is what our rules actually are, just wasn't followed in this instance.

I have a point which upon rereading my posts I realize I have completely messed up and can't figure a good way to work it so TLDR; Gamerunners need to always follow the rules and making a hard rule on slips is just going to cause more problems than it solves.]

Looking at my posts you may question what at all referenced this and the answer is: I'm trying to get as much animal produce out of my life as possible for my new year resolution and I haven't had tea with milk in days, I'm not coping, send help.
I continue to agree on slips. I think it has to be case by case. As for the other... OAT MILK. OAT MILK. OAT MILK.

have I steered you wrong before on food? Trust the monkey.
 

weemadarthur

Mad as in angry, or mad as in crazy?
Also can I join your discord please so I have a chance to prove I'm not really the obnoxious bossy wall posting person I'm currently appearing to be by being a complete nonentity there instead?
If you'd rather wait for now until you're sure Loki dumping me on you folks wasn't some form of curse that's fine of course
But ephi, what happens after you stop lurking and start making walls of text instead? there’s a book club
 
Okay, so, about this!

We do sometimes and there was one LEGENDARY game in which Rover did some truly wild biz, but they don't happen very often. We have channels and bots and everything. Sometimes people organize other one-offs, like we played Among Us a few times and suddenly a bunch of us are about to play Phasmophobia together because I started yelling at everyone on Discord to please come play with me. But it's never been an official organized thing. It just seems to happen sometimes when someone gets excited about a thing.

Personally, I love live mafia and will play if it's at a convenient time. We could run games on Discord or even on here if we wanted 1-2 day games. There's a ton of small setups we could just recycle over and over. The livemafia bot I think adjusts based on the number of players so we don't have to do anything at all there.
I'd be down for some among us and maybe some phasmophobia too!
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
So it seems that when it comes to slip that everyone seems to agree that if the slip happens in a game thread, it's a slip and should be left as is.

Where we seem to disagree on is what about slips that end up in out of game threads and what to do with the players affected. I think everyone of us can agree that such cases should just be handled on a case by case basis as they don't happen that often especially with the plan to thread lock.

I still maintain that if only one person saw the slip we should lean towards replacement and use gag orders for most other cases (such as multiple witnesses or them refusing to replace out) when slips happen out of thread, but again not everyone agrees on that so we probably should just leave it up to the game runner and the watchers assisting to decide what happens when slips happen.

I'll be okay with that as long as we just make it a general rule that witnesses subbing out because the game runner asked them or they chose to aren't affected on their priority.
 

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
related to the review thread but interesting.

In the last game I mentioned that OM and the Fireblend Voting tool have issues with my work computer VPN block list. (OM being listed as forum/unknown and Fireblend's tool giving an alternate control block warning). The last time I checked was before I left work on the end of year holiday (roughly day 2 Mario Kart to today)

However, as of today, when I clicked the link to this thread I was able to make it in. Was something done behind the scenes to remove those tags?
Fireblend probably did some sort of magic like he always does.

So it seems that when it comes to slip that everyone seems to agree that if the slip happens in a game thread, it's a slip and should be left as is.

Where we seem to disagree on is what about slips that end up in out of game threads and what to do with the players affected. I think everyone of us can agree that such cases should just be handled on a case by case basis as they don't happen that often especially with the plan to thread lock.

I still maintain that if only one person saw the slip we should lean towards replacement and use gag orders for most other cases (such as multiple witnesses or them refusing to replace out) when slips happen out of thread, but again not everyone agrees on that so we probably should just leave it up to the game runner and the watchers assisting to decide what happens when slips happen.

I'll be okay with that as long as we just make it a general rule that witnesses subbing out because the game runner asked them or they chose to aren't affected on their priority.
I think we can all be in agreement of that. I'll make my usual end-of-review-thread post with a wrap up of changes just to be super clear on it though.
 
With regards to the slip. I do feel action should be taken one way or the other pretty quickly. If salva had subbed out I dont think this becomes an issue and if salva had exposed zeke straight away for the slip I dont think its as big as an issue either.
 
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Yeah, I think a gag order doesn't really work in such a situation. Maybe the person who finds the slip can replace out if they want to without hit to their priority or else they can do with the information as they please.
 
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Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
What term should we replace lynch with in our Rules/Documents?

Vote in the poll HERE!

This will run a little over 24 hours and when it ends I will post the result. I will also start to wrap up the review thread if discussion has slowed down.
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
Staff member
I live to serve the people. I know half the stuff in this thread is due to MK, but I really just want you all to have fun. Excited for my next (and best!) game to run. Need to get on designing my other ideas. I once thought MGS was the best I could ever do but I want to surpass my own expectations. I know my games aren’t always perfect, but I try hard to surprise you all.
 

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
We have the results of our poll! With that, I plan to start wrapping up the review thread and getting rolling on the next season. Thank you to everyone who participated in this season’s review thread, suggested a new term, and voted! Here are the changes we will be putting forward.


All official documents, rules, and more will no longer use ‘lynch/lynched’ and will instead use ‘vote/voted out’. Although our official documents will no longer be using this term we will not be moderating its use by players. This will take some time to change everything but we plan to have everything changed before the next season. If you notice future instances of lynch in the rules please point it out to me!
31 people voted in our poll and it was split;
Voted Out - 21 votes
Ejected - 5 votes
Elimination - 3 votes
Kill - 1 vote
Removed - 1 vote
End - 0 votes

Considerations will be taken to lock and move OuterMafia game threads sooner in an effort to decrease the chance of slips.

If a player catches a slip in the future we would appreciate them going to their gamerunner and alerting them of what happened. Each instance of this will be taken on a game-by-game basis to see if either player in question should be removed from the game. If the player who reports seeing the slip is asked to leave the game they will be given entry into one future game of their choice, regardless of priority status.

We will be asking future gamerunners to include language in their role PMs about breaking posting/voting restriction roles. Rule 13 has been changed to reflect this as well.
“13. Players should not perform moderator actions in game, including using highlight text outside of voting, using highlight text to submit false or restricted commands, issuing day-end/start commands, or calling for the modkill or replacement of another player. Encouraging others to break these rules is also not allowed. While we understand mafia can be an intense experience, and players may wish to discuss in-game moderation decisions with the gamerunner, once a gamerunner makes a decision, please respect it as final.”
Rule 26 will now read:
"If a player is replaced or modkilled due to any rule-breaking or being under the minimum post count limit, they will have end-game priority when signing up for a spot in their next game"
Thanks again everyone! Then new OT should be up within the next day or so. :>