Current Nier Roster

lokiduck

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  1. Nier: Limited JOAT (abilities unlocked over time)- 1 Self-Protect, 1 Message, 1 Double vote
  2. Kaine: Miller with 1 vig shot
  3. Emil: x shot Role blocker
  4. Weiss: x shot Motion Detector
  5. Yonah: Princess
  6. Fisherman: Role Fisher (33% shot of finding out the role), Fish vender
  7. King of Facade: Triggered Vigilante (If Fyra is killed)
  8. Fyra: Bodyguard
  9. Neun: Sleepwalker
  10. Hans: Mailman.
  11. Ursula: Beloved.
  12. Jaykob: Hammerer
  13. Sebastian: Doctor
  14. Forest of Myth Mayor: Gossip Hider
  15. Kalil and Beepy: Survivor
  16. Roc: Hunter (Can check once a night to see if player is from Facade) Wins if all three members of Facade (The King of Facade, Fyra, Neun) die.
  17. Shadowlord: JOAT (With preset powers)- 1 Ninja, 1 Strongman, 1 Switcher
  18. Noir: Role Cop
  19. Hansel: Role Blocker
  20. Gretel: Bounty Hunter (Can check once a night to see if player is Nier. If they are, Nier dies) 1 BP.
Here is the google sheet we did for the official roster: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xayoW6GFff_776JKqc0Lz_-aX93pr32lYWL2xRbSFJ8/edit?usp=sharing
 
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Hey, I guess we discuss the review here? Town is too strong at first glance, what abilities does the town Joat and scum Joat have?
 

lokiduck

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Oh so the review phase has started. Neat :o

Welcome everyone and I yes I guess we can have the discussion in this thread to make things easier. I updated the OP to include a link to the google sheets that lists all of our player's abilities in more detail.

Hey, I guess we discuss the review here? Town is too strong at first glance, what abilities does the town Joat and scum Joat have?

Town JOAT has: 1 Track, 1 Self-Protect, 1 message, 1 double vote. We were trying to find abilities that would be decent but not too gamebreaking so let us know if you want to change any things.

Scum JOAT has: 1 Ninja, 1 Vote Silencer (as a sort of counter to the town double vote), 1 switcher. Again let us know if you think we should change the abilities.

Are all of the abilities without numbers attached unlimited?

But yeah, town seems very OP

They are not. The plan was to make most of them x shots and let the reviewers decided how many there would be to balance town out with Scum.
 

lokiduck

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Looking at our list of town powers, which abilities do you personally think are the most OP and therefore need to be changed to something else?

I also updated the google sheet to list which abilities will for sure be x shot. I can do that on the OP as well.
 
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So uh,
I suggest all the below:
Remove 1 move from town Joat(not the message)
Remove the vig shot from miller
Remove the BP from the RB
Role Fisher 25% from 50.
Hider dies if they hide behind non town?

Roc:I assume Facade is the town? Too easy of a win con, you need to rework the role or give it a harder win con.

Add the strongman to the first member while also removing the vote silence and rework Gretel into something else.

Thoughts?
 

Verelios

Were-elios
So uh,
I suggest all the below:
Remove 1 move from town Joat(not the message)
Remove the vig shot from miller
Remove the BP from the RB
Role Fisher 25% from 50.
Hider dies if they hide behind non town?

Roc:I assume Facade is the town? Too easy of a win con, you need to rework the role or give it a harder win con.

Add the strongman to the first member while also removing the vote silence and rework Gretel into something else.

Thoughts?
Hold up, this is our first review process so rather than saying 'this should be X', can you explain why that's so beforehand? It's hard to understand without a frame of reference.
 
Hold up, this is our first review process so rather than saying 'this should be X', can you explain why that's so beforehand? It's hard to understand without a frame of reference.
My bad, tbh I made the post on the fly, the changes are because town is op in it's current state, so it is a list of small nerfs. I'm not saying they should be like that, it's suggestions to make the game more balanced, if you want something else then tell us and we can discuss.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Remove 1 move from town Joat(not the message)

Okay I'm fine with removing one. How about the 1 time track since we have a lot of investigative roles?

Remove the BP from the RB

We already did actually. I forgot to update it on this list but Pedro suggested we should when we made two protective roles.

Remove the vig shot from miller

We gave the miller a vig shot because we wanted to give the characters something that fits them. Kaine is a pretty bad ass character so while being a miller fits her to a tee, we just felt she needed something else.

Hider dies if they hide behind non town?

I'm fine with this change. This will also give the player even more reason to submit who they will talk with at night because the RNG might get them killed.

Role Fisher 25% from 50.

Part of why we had it at 50% is because Pedro was saying the player might get frustrated if they keep getting nothing. If we make the Role Fisher a x shot I think he should have a better chance of getting results. If he has infinite shots then he can have 25%.

Roc:I assume Facade is the town? Too easy of a win con, you need to rework the role or give it a harder win con.

Out of town, only three of them are from Facade and the character that has to die for Roc to win is the King of Facade. Roc can only check to see if someone is from Facade or not, so not only does he have to choose the correct person, but there are two other players that will get him the same result as the King. Even if he finds the correct player, he has to find a way of getting them killed, either by getting them Lunched or waiting for them to die.

If you still think that wincon is too easy then I have two proposals.
1. He has to mark the king before the king dies. When he checks to see if someone is from Facade, he marks any Facade member he finds. That player will also be notified that they are marked which would bring attention to something weird going on. This means that he has to find the correct player before they die.

2. All three members of Facade have to die which is the King, Fyra, and Neun the King’s Adviser. This is slightly easy as Fyra is a bodyguard but if Roc gets Neun/Fyra lunched and the King has his vigilante shot, there is a chance he’ll be the one shot.

As for what we will call Town, we haven't actually decided on that. all of the town characters are considered human Technically so I guess we could flavor this as Human vs Shades since the Scum team, Kalil, and Roc are all shades.

Kaine is possessed by a shade which is part of why she’s a Miller but it still works.

Add the strongman to the first member while also removing the vote silence and rework Gretel into something else.

I'm fine with this change, but I'm not sure what to give Gretel. The Gimmick with Hansel and Gretel is that one is defense while the other offense so we wanted to give Gretel an offensive power.
 
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Okay I'm fine with removing one. How about the 1 time track since we have a lot of investigative roles?
Yeah, of those 3 I think that's the best choice.
We gave the miller a vig shot because we wanted to give the characters something that fits them. Kaine is a pretty bad ass character so while being a miller fits her to a tee, we just felt she needed something else.
Hmm, maybe then you can change it to something else, because I think 2 vig shots is a bit overkill, maybe a vig shot that only has a 50% chance? I'm not sure to be honest.
Part of why we had it at 50% is because Pedro was saying the player might get frustrated if they keep getting nothing. If we make the Role Fisher a x shot I think he should have a better chance of getting results. If he has infinite shots then he can have 25%.
Unlimited and 25% sounds good. Although remember that this is role madness and town is supposed to have some useless roles, remember LiS, I'm not saying you shouldn't care if a player gets frustrated but it's part of the game to roll a not so good role.
2. All three members of Facade have to die which is the King, Fyra, and Neun the King’s Adviser. This is slightly easy as Fyra is a bodyguard but if Roc gets Neun/Fyra lunched and the King has his vigilante shot, there is a chance he’ll be the one shot.
I like this one, this makes the win con slightly harder but not too hard. Just so we are clear, if they win they exit the game correct? The game doesn't end.
I'm fine with this change, but I'm not sure what to give Gretel. The Gimmick with Hansel and Gretel is that one is defense while the other offense so we wanted to give Gretel an offensive power.
The only really offensive moves in Mafia I can think of are vig shots, although with the proposed changes town might be a bit too nerfed to give an extra kill to mafia, does this character have a rivalry with anyone? You can make them check for a specific character, if they find them then they kill them and they get a benefit or something.
 

lokiduck

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Yeah, of those 3 I think that's the best choice.

Okay, I'll remove the track from the list.

Hmm, maybe then you can change it to something else, because I think 2 vig shots is a bit overkill, maybe a vig shot that only has a 50% chance? I'm not sure to be honest.

Hmmm I'm trying to think of an alternative ability. The reason why the King has a vig shot that activates when Fyra dies is because in the game he went full revenge mode when she sacrificed herself to protect him from Roc (Hence why she's a bodyguard) so we thought a triggered vigilante was the best way of representing this.

I mention this because out of the two vigilantes Kaine fits it better, however we mainly wanted to give her an additional power that would make her look either more suspicious or be NAI.

So if we can think of an alternative ability for either of them that'd be great.

Unlimited and 25% sounds good. Although remember that this is role madness and town is supposed to have some useless roles, remember LiS, I'm not saying you shouldn't care if a player gets frustrated but it's part of the game to roll a not so good role.

Okay then we'll make him an unlimited with 25% chance which seems fair and means I'll get to have fun with sending the results. Since the role fisher is a fisherman the idea is that he is fishing to catch a fish for another player (the target he's investigating) every night. If he gets no result (either via failing the RNG or being roleblocked) he gets a regular fish, and if succeeds instead of a fish he gets a piece of paper that straight up says the player's role, which flavor wise will annoy the fisherman. XD

Basically:

Failed attempt: You got the most beautiful fish you have ever caught and you are quite pleased.

Successful: You find a piece of paper that says "x is a Gossip Hider!" Who cares about that, why didn't you catch a fish!

I like this one, this makes the win con slightly harder but not too hard. Just so we are clear, if they win they exit the game correct? The game doesn't end.

Yes if Roc outlives all three members of Facade, he gets to leave the game. This makes him very anti-town since he is going to be trying to remove three townies from the game and leave, while our other neutral the survivor could be either pro-town or pro-scum depending on how things go.

The only really offensive moves in Mafia I can think of are vig shots, although with the proposed changes town might be a bit too nerfed to give an extra kill to mafia, does this character have a rivalry with anyone? You can make them check for a specific character, if they find them then they kill them and they get a benefit or something.

Hansel and Gretel are actually the first boss in the game so if they have a beef with anyone it'd be the main character Nier. Lore wise it'd make sense because the Shadowlord would reward them for taking out his biggest threat to getting Yonah. I'm not sure what ability we'd give them though.

The main thing about these two is that they really care about the other so I was originally humoring having one of them get a buff if the other dies, but I wasn't sure how to do that.
 

lokiduck

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One thing I just thought about with having the Gossip Hider die if he hides behind non-town is that basically they will always know the person they are talking with is town which will make it easy for them to confirm people.

Mind you how we would probably do it is have him always talk with the person he is "Dreaming with" and kill him when the chat closes so he may think the other player is town (until he finds out he died) while they may actually be scum/neutral.

part of the fun of having a gossip is that they aren't always sure on the alignment of the person they are talking with, but if the gossip hider talks with someone and doesn't die the next day, they will know for sure that person is town.
 

lokiduck

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Just a heads up, my schedule is going to cause me to be a bit sporadic. My part time job won't hire me full time until at least January so while I only work three days a week, those hours aren't great because they are 10-6 or 11-7 PDT. I'll have four days free to talk any time if I'm not doing other stuff, but will only have evenings those three days as most likely in the mornings I'll be sleeping unless I get up early to clear my AP in FGO.

I'm honestly wondering how this will affect my ability to play and run Mafia games because with only having evenings on three days, I'm not sure if I'm going to be wanting to spend all my free time those days on the game. :/ My only chance at work will be on my 30 min. Lunch break but I'll be stuck on my phone and honestly I hate that. XD
 
Yeah working and running a game is tough, do you work on weekends? If yes then you can use the hecht method so it can always be night time on weekends.
 

lokiduck

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Yeah working and running a game is tough, do you work on weekends? If yes then you can use the hecht method so it can always be night time on weekends.
I do not work on weekends so that sounds like a good game plan. We'll have to check with Verelios to see if that works for him before our games are ready to be scheduled. XD

As for playing, I guess I could just explain ahead of time my schedule so people get why I disappear three days out of the week, though that won't keep me from getting lunched though. I just hope I don't have a power that's dependent on me taking action immediately after night actions lock like it did in SU or I won't be all that useful. XD

I was kind of wanting to play more just to have fun with it and see what happens. Now that I lived till endgame, I want to see what it's like not.

BTW I am about 30 pages from finishing Heroes vs Villains mafia and I kind of want to participate in the new one coming :o This one was a really entertaining read.
 
I do not work on weekends so that sounds like a good game plan. We'll have to check with Verelios to see if that works for him before our games are ready to be scheduled. XD

As for playing, I guess I could just explain ahead of time my schedule so people get why I disappear three days out of the week, though that won't keep me from getting lunched though. I just hope I don't have a power that's dependent on me taking action immediately after night actions lock like it did in SU or I won't be all that useful. XD

I was kind of wanting to play more just to have fun with it and see what happens. Now that I lived till endgame, I want to see what it's like not.

BTW I am about 30 pages from finishing Heroes vs Villains mafia and I kind of want to participate in the new one coming :o This one was a really entertaining read.
A huge level of activity is not needed, although disappearing for 3 days straight with no posts might result in a lynch. HVV2 might require a bit of activity, if you feel like you want to play you should totally sign up for it though.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
I do not work on weekends so that sounds like a good game plan. We'll have to check with Verelios to see if that works for him before our games are ready to be scheduled. XD

As for playing, I guess I could just explain ahead of time my schedule so people get why I disappear three days out of the week, though that won't keep me from getting lunched though. I just hope I don't have a power that's dependent on me taking action immediately after night actions lock like it did in SU or I won't be all that useful. XD

I was kind of wanting to play more just to have fun with it and see what happens. Now that I lived till endgame, I want to see what it's like not.

BTW I am about 30 pages from finishing Heroes vs Villains mafia and I kind of want to participate in the new one coming :o This one was a really entertaining read.
Um...I should be able to free up time those days. I can't micromanage the thread but checking in every hour or so should be possible.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Just a heads up, my schedule is going to cause me to be a bit sporadic. My part time job won't hire me full time until at least January so while I only work three days a week, those hours aren't great because they are 10-6 or 11-7 PDT. I'll have four days free to talk any time if I'm not doing other stuff, but will only have evenings those three days as most likely in the mornings I'll be sleeping unless I get up early to clear my AP in FGO.

I'm honestly wondering how this will affect my ability to play and run Mafia games because with only having evenings on three days, I'm not sure if I'm going to be wanting to spend all my free time those days on the game. :/ My only chance at work will be on my 30 min. Lunch break but I'll be stuck on my phone and honestly I hate that. XD
Well, judging by LP's record, you shouldn't have too many problems setting up quality analyses with a low post count. I'd even say you could get it done all in the same timeframe.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
A huge level of activity is not needed, although disappearing for 3 days straight with no posts might result in a lynch. HVV2 might require a bit of activity, if you feel like you want to play you should totally sign up for it though.
True, but I was partly exaggerating on that as I should be able to check in at least once a day on those three days whether it's before I go to work or via playing in the evening and well into the night since I can afford to stay up now. Plus I have to find out about it, but I may be able to eat at my desk which means computer access during my lunch break, but usually I used that time to clear out my AP in FGO.

But yeah I am interested so I think I'll sign up. If anything I can always be a replacement.

Um...I should be able to free up time those days. I can't micromanage the thread but checking in every hour or so should be possible.

Okay then sounds good. I'm sure we can find a way that works for both of us and the mod team.

Well, judging by LP's record, you shouldn't have too many problems setting up quality analyses with a low post count. I'd even say you could get it done all in the same timeframe.

True true, I'll just have to make sure people get why I'm disappearing, especially since I had the most posts in SU XD (Speaking of I'm only be Monkey and Fantomas here on OM in total post counts. >>)
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Anyways, let's get back to reviewing Nier to make sure we make a fun but balanced game. XD Was there anything major that needed to be changed still? Also my previous responses to your comments @Geno is up above so when you have time please respond. I know you are busy with other stuff like Image Mafia: Yellow so take your time.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Yeah, of those 3 I think that's the best choice.

Hmm, maybe then you can change it to something else, because I think 2 vig shots is a bit overkill, maybe a vig shot that only has a 50% chance? I'm not sure to be honest.

Unlimited and 25% sounds good. Although remember that this is role madness and town is supposed to have some useless roles, remember LiS, I'm not saying you shouldn't care if a player gets frustrated but it's part of the game to roll a not so good role.

I like this one, this makes the win con slightly harder but not too hard. Just so we are clear, if they win they exit the game correct? The game doesn't end.

The only really offensive moves in Mafia I can think of are vig shots, although with the proposed changes town might be a bit too nerfed to give an extra kill to mafia, does this character have a rivalry with anyone? You can make them check for a specific character, if they find them then they kill them and they get a benefit or something.

Okay, I'll remove the track from the list.



Hmmm I'm trying to think of an alternative ability. The reason why the King has a vig shot that activates when Fyra dies is because in the game he went full revenge mode when she sacrificed herself to protect him from Roc (Hence why she's a bodyguard) so we thought a triggered vigilante was the best way of representing this.

I mention this because out of the two vigilantes Kaine fits it better, however we mainly wanted to give her an additional power that would make her look either more suspicious or be NAI.

So if we can think of an alternative ability for either of them that'd be great.



Okay then we'll make him an unlimited with 25% chance which seems fair and means I'll get to have fun with sending the results. Since the role fisher is a fisherman the idea is that he is fishing to catch a fish for another player (the target he's investigating) every night. If he gets no result (either via failing the RNG or being roleblocked) he gets a regular fish, and if succeeds instead of a fish he gets a piece of paper that straight up says the player's role, which flavor wise will annoy the fisherman. XD

Basically:

Failed attempt: You got the most beautiful fish you have ever caught and you are quite pleased.

Successful: You find a piece of paper that says "x is a Gossip Hider!" Who cares about that, why didn't you catch a fish!



Yes if Roc outlives all three members of Facade, he gets to leave the game. This makes him very anti-town since he is going to be trying to remove three townies from the game and leave, while our other neutral the survivor could be either pro-town or pro-scum depending on how things go.



Hansel and Gretel are actually the first boss in the game so if they have a beef with anyone it'd be the main character Nier. Lore wise it'd make sense because the Shadowlord would reward them for taking out his biggest threat to getting Yonah. I'm not sure what ability we'd give them though.

The main thing about these two is that they really care about the other so I was originally humoring having one of them get a buff if the other dies, but I wasn't sure how to do that.
I'm okay with removing the track from Nier.

In regards to the vig shot, what about having the King's shot be RNG dependant if two vigs are too much? It can be that he was lashing out in grief and chucked a spear at someone.

About the Fisherman, hmmmm, I dunno. I ran two simulations for 25% success up to day 5 and this was the result:
Random number generator with 1-100. Above 75% passes while below fails.
F=Fail S=Success

D1: F ": F
D2: F ": S
D3: F ": F
D4: F ": F
D5: S ": S

I kind of feel that it can be lower than 50%, but 25% is, we could make do I suppose. How do you guys feel about 33%? A 1/3 chance should be okay?

Agree with Roc's WC.

Um, what's going on with Gretel?
 

Verelios

Were-elios
One thing I just thought about with having the Gossip Hider die if he hides behind non-town is that basically they will always know the person they are talking with is town which will make it easy for them to confirm people.

Mind you how we would probably do it is have him always talk with the person he is "Dreaming with" and kill him when the chat closes so he may think the other player is town (until he finds out he died) while they may actually be scum/neutral.

part of the fun of having a gossip is that they aren't always sure on the alignment of the person they are talking with, but if the gossip hider talks with someone and doesn't die the next day, they will know for sure that person is town.
That's interesting. What if they role claim in thread though? Hm...we could always make it so that the chat is anonymous (can we do that actually? That seems like a lot of work). It's hard to think of a way around this that isn't even slightly bastard.
 
I was going to respond to the new posts but I think we should wait for OA before doing further changes. I was going to suggest abilities for the King and Gretel but I don't wanna influence the game too much. It's yours after all. 33% percent on the fisherman is fine by me.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Um, what's going on with Gretel?

Geno suggested giving the Strongman shot to Shadowlord and giving Gretel something else. So we were speculating about what to give them.

About the Fisherman, hmmmm, I dunno. I ran two simulations for 25% success up to day 5 and this was the result:
Random number generator with 1-100. Above 75% passes while below fails.
F=Fail S=Success

D1: F ": F
D2: F ": S
D3: F ": F
D4: F ": F
D5: S ": S

I kind of feel that it can be lower than 50%, but 25% is, we could make do I suppose. How do you guys feel about 33%? A 1/3 chance should be okay?

33% seems good to me, but I'll wait to see what the others think.

In regards to the vig shot, what about having the King's shot be RNG dependant if two vigs are too much? It can be that he was lashing out in grief and chucked a spear at someone.

I like this idea.

That's interesting. What if they role claim in thread though? Hm...we could always make it so that the chat is anonymous (can we do that actually? That seems like a lot of work). It's hard to think of a way around this that isn't even slightly bastard.

If we could make the chat anonymous that might be a nice solution and it'd fit the flavor since the gossip is supposed to be in someone's dream anyways. I do like the idea though that he talks no matter what with the other party, it's just he doesn't know he died until the morning which would be the same for any townie he dreams with. By keeping it anonymous though, he won't know for sure who is town even if they tell him who they are.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I was going to respond to the new posts but I think we should wait for OA before doing further changes. I was going to suggest abilities for the King and Gretel but I don't wanna influence the game too much. It's yours after all. 33% percent on the fisherman is fine by me.
Okay then, we'll wait on OA. c:
 
About the hider.
The hider always takes the action in the days. Not the nights, so they cannot be roleblocked, just something I thought I'd mention.
You can make an anonymous chat, it's not bastard so no worries about that.
 
Part of the reason I wanted to have it at 25% is because Hider is a soft cop. Although 33% is fine.
Making the vig shot rng is an option, however I think we can get more creative here if we look enough.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
About the hider.
The hider always takes the action in the days. Not the nights, so they cannot be roleblocked, just something I thought I'd mention.
You can make an anonymous chat, it's not bastard so no worries about that.
Okay that's good to know on both accounts. We figured the hider couldn't be roleblocked, but it's nice to have a confirmation.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Part of the reason I wanted to have it at 25% is because Hider is a soft cop. Although 33% is fine.
Making the vig shot rng is an option, however I think we can get more creative here if we look enough.
That's true the hider is a soft cop, especially considering he can gossip as well, but I think it works with having the fisherman because the hider dies if he chats with scum and no one will know who he chatted with (unless the motion detector can but since the hider has a day action I don't think he can?) and by having the chat be anonymous on both sides people he hides behind won't know if they can trust him and he won't know if he can trust them.

Agree about the vig shot, we can keep planning there just like we can with Gretel. Again we need to wait on OA though.
 
That's true the hider is a soft cop, especially considering he can gossip as well, but I think it works with having the fisherman because the hider dies if he chats with scum and no one will know who he chatted with (unless the motion detector can but since the hider has a day action I don't think he can?) and by having the chat be anonymous on both sides people he hides behind won't know if they can trust him and he won't know if he can trust them.

Agree about the vig shot, we can keep planning.
AFAIK motion detector still detects the hide, not 100% on that though, we might need to ask someone more experienced. I don't think the anonymous part needs to be both ways, only the hider needs to be anonymous right?
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
AFAIK motion detector still detects the hide, not 100% on that though, we might need to ask someone more experienced. I don't think the anonymous part needs to be both ways, only the hider needs to be anonymous right?
In either case our MD is an x shot so that would require him to detect on the correct player the night the Hider dies for them to find someone that is not town so it's fine.

Oh right I just realized... because the hider selects who he hides behind (unless it's RNG'd) he'll know who he is dreaming with which again means that he'll know for sure who is town if he lives. We can still keep it anonymous though just so the person he hides behind won't know who he is at least unless he tells them and they believe him.

I guess the only work around in that case is having it be a completely RNG'd role where the hider hopes RNGeus doesn't pair him with someone not town every night. Considering we have a 4 man scum team and 2 neutrals... the odds wouldn't be all that favorable for him in this case.
 
In either case our MD is an x shot so that would require him to detect on the correct player the night the Hider dies for them to find someone that is not town so it's fine.

Oh right I just realized... because the hider selects who he hides behind (unless it's RNG'd) he'll know who he is dreaming with which again means that he'll know for sure who is town if he lives. We can still keep it anonymous though just so the person he hides behind won't know who he is at least unless he tells them and they believe him.

I guess the only work around in that case is having it be a completely RNG'd role where the hider hopes RNGeus doesn't pair him with someone not town every night. Considering we have a 4 man scum team and 2 neutrals... the odds wouldn't be all that favorable for him in this case.
I don't think making the role completely rng would be very fun.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
That's true, I'm hesitant to have the hider's target be RNG because then it opens up a way for them to die through no fault of their own. And that doesn't seem fair.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I don't think making the role completely rng would be very fun.
That's true, I'm hesitant to have the hider's target be RNG because then it opens up a way for them to die through no fault of their own. And that doesn't seem fair.
True, which is why I wasn't feeling the suggestion myself.

I was just trying to figure out a work around for the fact that the hider can confirm townies I guess :/ I like the concept of him being a gossip just because he has no real idea what side the other player is on and I think him being a gossip hider is a fun concept.
 
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Verelios

Were-elios
True, which is why I wasn't feeling the suggestion myself.

I was just trying to figure out a work around for the fact that the hider can confirm townies I guess :/ I like the concept of him being a gossip just because he has no real idea what side the other player is on and I think him being a gossip hider is a fun concept.
Yeah, I like Gossip Hider as a role because it's interesting. As for utility, did you want to weaken Fisherman more since GH is a soft cop?
 
We need to discuss 1 more rule about the hider. Traditionally all actions against the hider fail when they hide.
However if the person they hid behind is targeted for a kill, the hider also dies. Is this the rule you want as well?
 

Verelios

Were-elios
We need to discuss 1 more rule about the hider. Traditionally all actions against the hider fail when they hide.
However if the person they hid behind is targeted for a kill, the hider also dies. Is this the rule you want as well?
I believe that was the plan, just need to check with @lokiduck to make sure.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
We need to discuss 1 more rule about the hider. Traditionally all actions against the hider fail when they hide.
However if the person they hid behind is targeted for a kill, the hider also dies. Is this the rule you want as well?
Yes that was the intention. Since our GH hides every single night making him immune to night actions we wanted to have the rule that he dies if his chat partner is killed. I don't know if we agreed on it but if the GH picks the bodyguard the night she protects someone from a kill then he's dead as well right? Since she was basically NK'd in place of someone else?

Yeah, I like Gossip Hider as a role because it's interesting. As for utility, did you want to weaken Fisherman more since GH is a soft cop?
That was more or less the reason yes. So how we handle the GH could determine how we proceed with the Fisherman.
 
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lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
If you look at our idea thread, you will see that we came of with the idea of the mayor of the forest of myth being a gossiper first, becuase in his town everyone is put to sleep by a tree named Sleeping Beauty. To us it made sense to have him go to sleep at night and then go into another's dream where they "dream together" (aka have a night chat).

It was only later that we decided to also make him a hider because I threw out the idea that dies if the person whose dream he's in dies as well. Before then i was willing to let him not be immune to night actions just because in my head he's just some dude sleeping somewhere so of course investigators or mafia could find him.

What I'm trying to say is the mayor has mostly been a gossiper first and a hider second which is why I'm a bit iffy on having the rule that he dies if he visits anti-town. It makes sense even lore wise because I assume the dreams of shades might be a dangerous place especially for someone who isn't supposed to be there... I just don't like the idea that he can town confirm people if he doesn't die during the night.

We have a lot of investigative power and while gossipers can also be since they can talk to people, it's based on them trusting the other player's word more or less.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
However I have a proposal! What if instead of dying automatically if he hides behind non-town, he is targetable for a night kill if he is dreaming with scum. Basically if the scum he is dreaming with chooses to (they won't be able to chat with their scum-mates about it though) they can do the NK action in the dream chat and kill the dreamer. There is the risk that scum will pick a kill target after his choice is made meaning that the GH doesn't die, but since from what I understand gossiping scum can see scumchat but can't type in it, then they'd know if a target had already been chosen.

If they choose to not too the first time scum encounter him, they will probably tell their buddies about him and then the next time it happens scum might consider doing it then.

Naturally scum won't know that they are able to kill him if they chat with him, especially since I'm sure the GH wouldn't tell them, but if they decide to do it then that's a bonus for them.
 
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Usually the gossip chat does not impact other chats. The Love Boat 3 one was a thief variation, it was the first time I saw it. Although making the hider not die if they hide behind non town is quite the buff. You might think the soft cop aspect is strong, but remember that there's a huge risk and that you can never catch scum with it. It's not a very strong ability.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Usually the gossip chat does not impact other chats. The Love Boat 3 one was a thief variation, it was the first time I saw it. Although making the hider not die if they hide behind non town is quite the buff. You might think the soft cop aspect is strong, but remember that there's a huge risk and that you can never catch scum with it. It's not a very strong ability.
All right then I guess we can have him die if he hides behind non-town.

Does that also count the neutrals?
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I've been thinking about one of our minor powers which is Jaykob who has a hammer only DV. I just learned about Hammerer's and I kind of want to make him one... >> it fits lore wise.

Quick backstory for the idea I'm humoring: Lore wise, Jaykob is a blacksmith with a little brother who hates shades but especially the robots because his mother was killed by them. (He actually gets killed so his brother Gideon hates them even more.) We had humored have Gideon original actually but decided to go with Jaykob since this game will be pre-time skip, and instead settled on making Gideon one of the fake claims for our scum team (Since he's one of the few named characters we haven't used IMAO). We partly made him a hammer only DV because he's a blacksmith that hammer gets it because we wanted to weaken his power.

Anyways I mention this because in the game Jaykob's bro will be missing in the flavor so naturally he would be concerned about him and even more concerned that Shades or robots would have taken/harmed him. It'd make complete sense for him to want to take out possible threats quickly without thinking about it, which is why it'd make sense he'd be a hammerer. Additional bonus it's pretty anti-town and might cause more people get lunched moving the game along, and even better it's even more of a counter to our beloved townie though the DV was as well.

Now I wouldn't say he'd activate automatically with it as that'd be silly, but maybe if a certain condition can be met it activates. Since the brothers are actually connected with Kalil and Beepy (Beepy was actually blamed for Jaykob's Death) I kind of want to do something with this, even if Jaykob doesn't become a hammerer.

Additionally, since Kalil and Beepy are survivors, having Jaykob having something that makes him a threat to them, might make their win con a bit harder...

Anyways, that was my crazy thought. Let me know if it' too anti-town. XD
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
@Geno Soooo did you ever talk to the mods about OA being AWOL. Now that I'm out of HvV 2 I'd love to get back to working on this please. XD
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Roy told me he'd send OA a PM to ask before replacing, idk what happened :(.
Okay then, I guess we wait while I also wait to hear on when they are making that other planning thread for Vere and I so we can divide up our ideas for a game and it's sequel so one can actually be reviewed without spoiling the other. XD
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Everyone should have a gamemate like Loki, because I'd probably just be spinning my wheels alone for years asking review team where?
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Everyone should have a gamemate like Loki, because I'd probably just be spinning my wheels alone for years asking review team where?
LOL, I'm pretty non-confrontational (Hilarious because I play Mafia right?) so I too would have let us just sit there in the void waiting for a response, but Geno was actually the one that brought it up in my Role PM asking if I had heard from Roy.

However, I really want to get back to mafia planning though.
 
It is unfortunate we have to wait this long. The problem seems to be that there's not enough reviewers for the amount of games that recently got into the review phase, I've been waiting for 1 reviewer for RDR2 mafia since like a month+
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
It is unfortunate we have to wait this long. The problem seems to be that there's not enough reviewers for the amount of games that recently got into the review phase, I've been waiting for 1 reviewer for RDR2 mafia since like a month+
Ah i see, in that case Vere and i can take our time with our two other games we are planning before we send the first one in for review.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I know right? DX Meanwhile Vere and I are getting two games ready for review while we think up ideas for two more.
 

OceanicAir

4 8 15 16 23 42
I'm totally here because I'm a super responsible reviewer and not because I was (justifiably) called out in a vague manner in the review thread.

But for real, I'm sorry about the delay y'all.
 

OceanicAir

4 8 15 16 23 42
Oh god, now I feel even worse to see that nothing else was done here. I wish I didn't put others in this situation because I've been on the other side (gamerunner went awol in review) along with the fact that it is a generally lousy thing to do.

Please don't be afraid to bop me on discord/era if you need immediate attention to the game. I should have a more careful eye on this though.

But reading the roles, I still can't help feel like town is OP. Pretty much all of the roles for town (outside of the Miller, but even they have a big shot) aren't negative. Is there any sleepwalker in nier lore or someone to deliver (useless) items?

Also, what is x in the x-shot for those roles since the Google doc seems to allude to multiple shots.

Whose roleblock has priority?

For the princess can it be either upon nk or lunch that the loss of night actions occur, rather than both?

I think town has too many investigative abilities because if the shadowlord dies early, Mafia is pretty screwed.

And again, super sorry for going awol
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Oh god, now I feel even worse to see that nothing else was done here. I wish I didn't put others in this situation because I've been on the other side (gamerunner went awol in review) along with the fact that it is a generally lousy thing to do.

Hey it's okay, we were pretty busy with HvV and I was busy in general, but I appreciate that you popped in.

But reading the roles, I still can't help feel like town is OP. Pretty much all of the roles for town (outside of the Miller, but even they have a big shot) aren't negative. Is there any sleepwalker in nier lore or someone to deliver (useless) items?

If you seen my more recent posts I was trying to make Jaykob have more of a negative role, but I'd be down for through in some more negative stuff even if it's an annoying passive on someone's good role to throw off the investigators. One idea I can think of since we have a motion detector and one tracker shot on Nier is that the fisherman is well duh a fisherman so maybe passively he gives a fish to the people he investigates or a random player that does nothing? The first one will tell people who he checked out if they learn his role... so maybe doing the second option is better.

The closest character we'd have to a sleepwalker is the mayor but he's a gossip hider so I don't think it'd work. However, now that I think of it Neun, the King of Facade, or Ursula could have a useless/anti-town passive. Neun is the adviser to the king and believes strongly in the rules being enforced in Facade which is why he's an AC. He's looking for rule breakers basically flavor wise.

We could make him a sleepwalker that randomly visits people to see if they are following the rules?

Not sure what to give the King if we were to give it to him. He is a King that makes declarations and all that but still not sure. However,it is possible we could give him a voting based ability of a vig shot is too powerful.

Ursula is an old woman that lives in a lighthouse and we made her beloved (because we needed another named character LOL) because the whole town wrote her letters pretending to be her old lover. but she also had a bad attitude. Not sure again what negative to give her.

Also, what is x in the x-shot for those roles since the Google doc seems to allude to multiple shots.

we put x there because we weren't sure how many shots to give people. Pedro who helped us at first with the game building said that he usually has the review team help decide how many shots each role should have. If town is too OP then we could give the roles only 1 or 2 shots. Based on the composition of town and the scum team how many would you recommend?

Whose roleblock has priority?

I believe we discussed this in our original idea thread... let me go look it up. I'll post about it below as we discussed it over several posts.

For the princess can it be either upon nk or lunch that the loss of night actions occur, rather than both?

Oh? What's your reasoning there? If we make it lunch only then her player will mainly focus on not getting lunched and confess about it only to get nigh killed later probably. If we make it NK, then that most likely puts the blame on the scum team for her death if she dies that way and causes the event.

The idea is we wanted her death to be a punishment for both sides because Yonah is a character both Nier and SL want. Nier wants to protect her and SL wants her for his plans and so neither would want her dead.

I think town has too many investigative abilities because if the shadowlord dies early, Mafia is pretty screwed.

I can agree there and might be willing to give one some investigative roles (not the role fisher LOL) so which ones would you consider removing?

An alternative is that we beef up the mafia team which is certainly doable based on who they are. Grimmoire Noir especially could use some extra abilities.

Additionally something I was humoring is that Hansel and Gretel are pretty strongly connected (they are included in the same boss fight) and part of the fight is based on the fact that when one of them dies the other gets buffed. I was thinking that maybe we could make it that they unlock a lot more abilities if one of them or maybe even SL dies (since he's like their leader and all that?)

If we were to change some investigatve roles I'm willing to alter the alignment cop or the Motion Detector, but it'd mean we'd have to change the roles serving as their foil around a bit.
 
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lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
If Emil roleblocks SL but SL switches on him then that is something to consider. If we let the Switch be above Blocking then that means that Emil's target is switched to a townie or possibly one of the neutrals, but if we let Emil's roleblock win out then SL is blocked and nothing happens.

Also how are we going to deal with both roleblockers. If Emil Blocks Noir and Noir Blocks him then I guess in that case they just cancel each other out.

If Emil blocks SL who has a switch on Weiss, but Noir blocks Emil.

In that case I'd say Noir blocks Emil, which means SL can do his switch on Weiss.

In the reverse (Emil blocks Noir who blocks Nier) Emil will block Noir and Nier can do his action.

There is a section about the priority of night actions in the Guide for Gamerunners, that's followed in every game; action priority is not something that's decided by the designer because we have that standard. Using it for the PRs present in this design would look like this:

1. Gossip Hider
2. Switcher shot from Mafia JOAT
3. Roleblocker
4. Self-Protect shot from Town JOAT/Doctor/Bodyguard
5. Vote Silencing shot from Mafia JOAT/Message shot from Town JOAT/Mailman
6. Kill from Miller/Mafia/Triggered Vig <- Strongman and Ninja are just modifiers here
7. Tracker shot from Town JOAT/Motion Detector/Role Fisher/Role Cop/Hunter

Additionally, there's an observation there about how a Roleblocker and a Switcher interact together.

There's a section on the wiki about multiple RBs: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roleblocker (saving you a click, there's no consensus on what's done and you can either choose that someone who has been Roleblocked can't Roleblock someone else, or you can choose that all Roleblocking happen at the same time and let every Rolebocking action go through)

edit: rolebocking lol i'm tired but this is making me laugh

I originally got the order list from the gamerunner guide, I guess I just missed what happens when a RB Switcher interact though.

In either case, thanks for informing on that.

Oh okay, In that case I would probably have it that both RB's work, but if one targets the other then that one gets the priority meaning the one being targeted is Roleblocked.

With this many players there is always a chance that none of them will hit each other anyways.

Okay so now that we have a order list and all of our roles figured out, what else do we need to do to be able to submit this for review?

Here are the posts we had on the roleblocking matter basically it works this way:

If Emil and Noir block each other the same night: they cancel each other out.
If Emil targets Noir and he targets someone else: Noir is blocked and his target does their actions.
If Noir targets Emil and he targets someone else: Emil is blocked and his target does their actions.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Right now we have the King as a triggered Vig. So if we can come up for a different role for him that has some anti-town elements without making things too easy for Roc (IE. He has to announce who he is in thread or some shit XD) I'd be down for it.

Looking over the roles currently, I def wouldn't mind beefing up mafia more to help balance out town's powers an weakening town a bit even if we just give them some passives that throw off the town powers we have.

Also going back to Hansel and Gretel, basically Hansel is supposed to be the defensive type role, while Gretel is the offensive so we could have Hansel have some abilities that would serve as a counter to town roles, though i'm not sure what.

If we keep both town vigs, we should give the mafia members (some at least) some BP as a counter for sure.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I've been thinking about one of our minor powers which is Jaykob who has a hammer only DV. I just learned about Hammerer's and I kind of want to make him one... >> it fits lore wise.

Quick backstory for the idea I'm humoring: Lore wise, Jaykob is a blacksmith with a little brother who hates shades but especially the robots because his mother was killed by them. (He actually gets killed so his brother Gideon hates them even more.) We had humored have Gideon original actually but decided to go with Jaykob since this game will be pre-time skip, and instead settled on making Gideon one of the fake claims for our scum team (Since he's one of the few named characters we haven't used IMAO). We partly made him a hammer only DV because he's a blacksmith that hammer gets it because we wanted to weaken his power.

Anyways I mention this because in the game Jaykob's bro will be missing in the flavor so naturally he would be concerned about him and even more concerned that Shades or robots would have taken/harmed him. It'd make complete sense for him to want to take out possible threats quickly without thinking about it, which is why it'd make sense he'd be a hammerer. Additional bonus it's pretty anti-town and might cause more people get lunched moving the game along, and even better it's even more of a counter to our beloved townie though the DV was as well.

Now I wouldn't say he'd activate automatically with it as that'd be silly, but maybe if a certain condition can be met it activates. Since the brothers are actually connected with Kalil and Beepy (Beepy was actually blamed for Jaykob's Death) I kind of want to do something with this, even if Jaykob doesn't become a hammerer.

Additionally, since Kalil and Beepy are survivors, having Jaykob having something that makes him a threat to them, might make their win con a bit harder...

Anyways, that was my crazy thought. Let me know if it' too anti-town. XD
This was the idea I thought about for Jaykob, let me know what you think XD
 
Lol I have forgotten pretty much everything about the game, will need to reread, heads up I'm going to Germany next weekend and I'll come back in March and I'll be pretty busy so idk what my activity will be like, I was hoping to have this finished by that time. If you want me to replace out then tell me and I will do it, hopefully we get the game to a good point until I leave though.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I think we should be fine as long as discussion is happening on a fairly regular basis. As long as we make the tweeks we need to it'll be cool.
 

OceanicAir

4 8 15 16 23 42
If you seen my more recent posts I was trying to make Jaykob have more of a negative role, but I'd be down for through in some more negative stuff even if it's an annoying passive on someone's good role to throw off the investigators. One idea I can think of since we have a motion detector and one tracker shot on Nier is that the fisherman is well duh a fisherman so maybe passively he gives a fish to the people he investigates or a random player that does nothing? The first one will tell people who he checked out if they learn his role... so maybe doing the second option is better.
I'd prefer the second option too

The closest character we'd have to a sleepwalker is the mayor but he's a gossip hider so I don't think it'd work. However, now that I think of it Neun, the King of Facade, or Ursula could have a useless/anti-town passive. Neun is the adviser to the king and believes strongly in the rules being enforced in Facade which is why he's an AC. He's looking for rule breakers basically flavor wise.

We could make him a sleepwalker that randomly visits people to see if they are following the rules?

Not sure what to give the King if we were to give it to him. He is a King that makes declarations and all that but still not sure. However,it is possible we could give him a voting based ability of a vig shot is too powerful.
A sleepwalker and item vendor would be fun for maximum confusion. I'd be fine with that.

Ursula is an old woman that lives in a lighthouse and we made her beloved (because we needed another named character LOL) because the whole town wrote her letters pretending to be her old lover. but she also had a bad attitude. Not sure again what negative to give her.
could make her hated for her bad additude or something. I just don't want the game to be *too* predictable, especially if you might be running out of named characters. Throw some curveballs for others that might be well versed in the lore.

we put x there because we weren't sure how many shots to give people. Pedro who helped us at first with the game building said that he usually has the review team help decide how many shots each role should have. If town is too OP then we could give the roles only 1 or 2 shots. Based on the composition of town and the scum team how many would you recommend?
2 for the RB, one for everything else (actually I might be open for a second for the motion detector)


Oh? What's your reasoning there? If we make it lunch only then her player will mainly focus on not getting lunched and confess about it only to get nigh killed later probably. If we make it NK, then that most likely puts the blame on the scum team for her death if she dies that way and causes the event.

The idea is we wanted her death to be a punishment for both sides because Yonah is a character both Nier and SL want. Nier wants to protect her and SL wants her for his plans and so neither would want her dead.
My reasoning is that a night with no actions hurts the hunter and scum, not town at all really. Night time is when Mafia is at its most powerful and a mislunch of Yonah essentially gives town a free night. Worst case scenario, imagine a mylo and scum hammers to win and then... they don't lol. Maybe all of town could be in mourning and only Mafia moves or something lol.



I can agree there and might be willing to give one some investigative roles (not the role fisher LOL) so which ones would you consider removing?
I would take the cop from town perhaps. Especially if the doctor is indefinite.

An alternative is that we beef up the mafia team which is certainly doable based on who they are. Grimmoire Noir especially could use some extra abilities.

Additionally something I was humoring is that Hansel and Gretel are pretty strongly connected (they are included in the same boss fight) and part of the fight is based on the fact that when one of them dies the other gets buffed. I was thinking that maybe we could make it that they unlock a lot more abilities if one of them or maybe even SL dies (since he's like their leader and all that?)
the buff after death could be interesting, I just want to caution that unless the cap is taken off for the amount of actions that a Mafia can take per night, they'll still be limited on that front.


Here are the posts we had on the roleblocking matter basically it works this way:

If Emil and Noir block each other the same night: they cancel each other out.
If Emil targets Noir and he targets someone else: Noir is blocked and his target does their actions.
If Noir targets Emil and he targets someone else: Emil is blocked and his target does their actions.
That's fine and should be easy enough to parse. Only issue I have with scum and town having the same roles (comes up with the cops kinda) is potential counterclaims being devastating for scum.
Right now we have the King as a triggered Vig. So if we can come up for a different role for him that has some anti-town elements without making things too easy for Roc (IE. He has to announce who he is in thread or some shit XD) I'd be down for it.

Looking over the roles currently, I def wouldn't mind beefing up mafia more to help balance out town's powers an weakening town a bit even if we just give them some passives that throw off the town powers we have.

Also going back to Hansel and Gretel, basically Hansel is supposed to be the defensive type role, while Gretel is the offensive so we could have Hansel have some abilities that would serve as a counter to town roles, though i'm not sure what.

If we keep both town vigs, we should give the mafia members (some at least) some BP as a counter for sure.
Maybe gretel starts off with a vest? I'd prefer if she could also share the protection somehow.
This was the idea I thought about for Jaykob, let me know what you think XD
I like this a lot, but it's gonna be something that they'll likely work around since our community is fairly anti-hammer and plurality generally reigns. But it's still fun.

As it stands, absolute worst case, scum could lose in like two days lol. I'd rather there be a little wiggle room, even if it is ridiculously unlikely.

I did this on mobile so I hope there aren't formatting issues lol.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I'd prefer the second option too

The the role fisher will also randomly give out fish to annoy the MD. XD

A sleepwalker and item vendor would be fun for maximum confusion. I'd be fine with that.

Neat then Fisherman is a fish vender besides a role cop and neun looks for rule breakers at night but whether they follow rules or not means nothing. :o (LOL he totally should get a notice of random message every night that has rule flavor completely unrelated to the game. XD

2 for the RB, one for everything else (actually I might be open for a second for the motion detector)

Sounds good for shots and we def need to give the MD 2 shots since we have the vender and sleepwalker.

I honestly wouldn't mind giving them more shots just because town wise we have at night possible actions such as "1 Message, a vig shot (possibly 2 still), RB, Fish giving, role fishing, Bodyguard, sleepwalker, messenger, and a doctor.

I don't think the gossip hider would come up.

That's a lot of night actions and the only thing the MD would really catch mafia on is killing which SL has a ninja shot unless they RB'd a town read player with a proven power.

could make her hated for her bad additude or something. I just don't want the game to be *too* predictable, especially if you might be running out of named characters. Throw some curveballs for others that might be well versed in the lore.

I'm not sure i like that idea honestly. Beloved isn't that useful and if we give her something else that's negative it could balance out what good her role does.

My reasoning is that a night with no actions hurts the hunter and scum, not town at all really. Night time is when Mafia is at its most powerful and a mislunch of Yonah essentially gives town a free night. Worst case scenario, imagine a mylo and scum hammers to win and then... they don't lol. Maybe all of town could be in mourning and only Mafia moves or something lol.

Okay I see that point. Maybe it'd be good to make it that it happens on one or the other though i'm a bit confused. Should make it that it happens when she's NK'd or Mislunched?

I would take the cop from town perhaps. Especially if the doctor is indefinite.

Lol so i guess we can just make Neun a sleepwalker and that's it. That works since we just facade members for roc to kill. However, if he doesn't have the cop shot then Kaine doesn't need to be a miller unless we wanted to just throw off town expectations on powers...

the buff after death could be interesting, I just want to caution that unless the cap is taken off for the amount of actions that a Mafia can take per night, they'll still be limited on that front.

Well maybe once we figure out what extra powers H&G get we could decided if we want that 1 action per night cap removed as well.

That's fine and should be easy enough to parse. Only issue I have with scum and town having the same roles (comes up with the cops kinda) is potential counterclaims being devastating for scum.

True, but in that case can't we give the scum RB a fake role to claim? ooooooohh they can claim alignment cop if we keep Kaine as a miller.

Maybe gretel starts off with a vest? I'd prefer if she could also share the protection somehow.

Yeah that sounds good c:

like this a lot, but it's gonna be something that they'll likely work around since our community is fairly anti-hammer and plurality generally reigns. But it's still fun.

As it stands, absolute worst case, scum could lose in like two days lol. I'd rather there be a little wiggle room, even if it is ridiculously unlikely.

Neat! Additionally the Hammerer is kind of a counter to Ursula's beloved because wouldn't he technically hammer her with the extra vote needed?

I did this on mobile so I hope there aren't formatting issues lol.

Lol you did a great job. I usually just copy the whole thing. XD
 
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lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
If we keep Gretel as a hunter that can kill Nier, we should make it that her extension power is a strongman shot to counter the doc. It'd risk our survivor getting killed, but hey we need counters to the neutrals right?

SL has one strong shot as well, but this way if SL dies they have a back up in the form of Gretel especially if we make it so that his death causes their buff besides Hansels

Alternative is that Gretel gets a ninja kill which would work if we give the MD more shots.
 
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lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Updated the Spreadsheet and our first post with new info. If anything looks wrong please change it. Also i'd loved to hear what the others think especially @Verelios
 

Verelios

Were-elios
If we're worried about too many investigative powers being detrimental to scum, how about making Noir a godfather? Makes sense that people would mistake them for Weiss.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
In the scenario for Yonah, if we're basing it on if her ability should activate on NK or mislunch and only affect town then it would definitely be mislunch. NK leaves mafia too much leeway in a free night, especially if Yonah claims early.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
I agree that the MD should get more than one shot. With everyone moving around at night, it's not likely they'll pick up on scum early on, and if they do then they might not even gather anything from it.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
If we're worried about too many investigative powers being detrimental to scum, how about making Noir a godfather? Makes sense that people would mistake them for Weiss.

The only issue there is that we actually have Weiss in the game to counter claim. I do agree that making Noir a Godfather if we keep Neun as AC works though. I'm sure with counterclaims we give them he can find one that'd fit whatever role he claims to have when claims come. the scum RB is the only one needing a fake power to claim. not sure what to pick on that front though besides claiming AC if Neun stays just a sleepwalker.

In the scenario for Yonah, if we're basing it on if her ability should activate on NK or mislunch and only affect town then it would definitely be mislunch. NK leaves mafia too much leeway in a free night, especially if Yonah claims early.

What OA was saying is that Yonah's ability largely affects scum since it prevents their NK. while we have a ton of town night powers, it's true as at worst some of our X shot players will waste a shot, but that depends on whether we announce or not if everyone is RB'd. If they know, they won't even try and use it. I like making it be Mislunch only if it only affects town though.

Out of the two options tho I still prefer it being a NK as a way to punish Mafia and town Night powers the next night. If she claims early then people may be wary to Mislunch her which will make it annoying for mafia, but they end up just letting her live and only take her out when they are about to win.

I agree that the MD should get more than one shot. With everyone moving around at night, it's not likely they'll pick up on scum early on, and if they do then they might not even gather anything from it.

Yep agreed. We have so many useless town powers and harmless ones that town might believe scum if they claim to be another harmless role because the SW and FV may back them up. Again the only damage giving the MD so many shots is that they happen to watch mafia visit someone that's dead in the morning the the same thing could happen if they follow our SW FV who happens to randomly visit the same person mafia kills. Plus with 1 possibly 2 Ninja shots on scum, they will have a decent counter.

There is the issue of Hansel RBing someone who claims they were RB'd the next day, but the'd only happen to people who get results like the MD himself (which lol) or the AC if we keep him.

The Role Fisher would just assume his role missed. There is a risk of Gretel finding Nier and killing him and Weiss seeing that happen but hey then Hansel gets a power up when Gretel gets lunched if they can't explain their way out of it and the MD will have actually be useful.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
What OA was saying is that Yonah's ability largely affects scum since it prevents their NK. while we have a ton of town night powers, it's true as at worst some of our X shot players will waste a shot, but that depends on whether we announce or not if everyone is RB'd. If they know, they won't even try and use it. I like making it be Mislunch only if it only affects town though.

Out of the two options tho I still prefer it being a NK as a way to punish Mafia and town Night powers the next night. If she claims early then people may be wary to Mislunch her which will make it annoying for mafia, but they end up just letting her live and only take her out when they are about to win.
That's a good point about Yonah acting as a deterrent. Hm, I think what it really comes down to is how much this would impact Mafia at different phases of the game. I do wonder if we can circumvent this by putting in SL's pm that even as he kills town he wants to keep Yonah safe. Maybe even as a side goal.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
That's a good point about Yonah acting as a deterrent. Hm, I think what it really comes down to is how much this would impact Mafia at different phases of the game. I do wonder if we can circumvent this by putting in SL's pm that even as he kills town he wants to keep Yonah safe. Maybe even as a side goal.
That's a posibility. Really what we need to do is in the flavor mention how he needs Yonah for his plans and as a result he needs to make sure she doesn't die and find her. He can use this whole event to pick off anyone that would get in the way of grabbing Yonah.

Mind you there's a chance no one will read the flavor but maybe they'll notice it XD
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I guess one idea would be to think of all the hypotheticals for both options and pick whichever seems more fair to both sides.

Additionally we have to decide if we want to publicly announce that everyone will be RB'd for the night. It could be a way of town wasting their shots just as much as scum.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
I guess one idea would be to think of all the hypotheticals for both options and pick whichever seems more fair to both sides.

Additionally we have to decide if we want to publicly announce that everyone will be RB'd for the night. It could be a way of town wasting their shots just as much as scum.
This seems the most fair. We can then simulate the worst case scenario for town and scum and see if they track.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
This seems the most fair. We can then simulate the worst case scenario for town and scum and see if they track.
Lol then i guess I can work on that. I don't know how to do that but I can try .-.
Is there anything I need to do? I'm kind of lost lol. I do agree with OA's suggestions.
It's okay if you are lost, mainly just keep up with the thread as much as you can and if there's something you want to say then of course say it. c: I'll keep updating the roster at the top as we work, so if i change something and if any thing looks weird or uneven then of course ask about it.

Right now we are trying to figure out how Yonah's Princess ability works. I had the idea of maybe we have it be actually based on how she dies. If she's ML'd she RB's town night powers, if she's NK'd she blocks mafia.

We want to run hypothetical scenarios to see which option seems the most fair to both sides (so i will include all options in these hypotheticals).
 
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lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
So from what I'm getting is we need to run 3 hypothetical situations.

1. Town is RB'd if Yonah is Mislunched
2. Both sides are RB'd if Yonah is NK'd
3. Scum is RB'd if Yonah is NK'd

And also include scenarios where we announce that x is RB'd as well.

I can work on this when i get home though I may def need help.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Not home yet but I had some thoughts.

1. Everyone is going to know about the RB because they will be seeing Yonah’s Role PM upon her death meaning that there’s no point in not announcing it to the thread in a flavor post.

What this also means is that anyone won’t ever waste their shots so the only negatives are that town (except the gossip hider because he can’t be RB’d unless that’s the one time he is) can’t protect themself and scum can’t kill anyone or use their abilities like the role cop shot.

In the end this seems more fair to scum since they already have small numbers so then not wasting their limited shots is a good thing. For town it doesn’t mean much and that seems fair.

2. I really like the idea of having who gets punished being based on who killed Yonah since that seems more fair. If she’s ML’d then town is punished and Scum gets a free kill, if she is NK’d then there is no death unless the town vigs try and take their shot then. This does make things a bit dangerous for scum though.

Admittedly one scenario I could see is Yonah’s player tells everyone she shouldn’t be mislunched and scum leaves her alone hoping town turns on her later. When they don’t scum kills her not realizing they try RB’d the next night, and thus prevents a scum automatic win the following night.

The only part where it’s wouldn’t be fair to scum NK wise is if Kaine or the King (if he gets the shot) think she’s scum and kill her.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Scenario 1: What if Yonah punishes town only for being ML'd

-Yonah is Mislunched early in the game causes town to be easily picked off by scum. This doesn't mean much as there is a lot of town left, it just means there's a chance that a really useful power gets taken out. The only townie with protections is the gossip hider and if he can't be RB'd he is fine. I think it's okay that we let him still gossip since he gets killed if he hides behind non-town or the town he picked dies.

-Yonah is mislunched middle of game resulting in another towny dead. Over all this still isn't bad as there are still a lot of townies around, it's just an issue if they keep mislunching though there is the concern that Gretel might kill Nier the same night but hey good job Scum for finding him.

-Yonah is mislunched near endgame resulting in scum getting a kill and possibly even the win. This is probably when it is the worst for her to get mislunched honestly.

How realistically could each of these scenarios occur? I'd say the first case is probably the least likely as Yonah's player would probably roleclaim to prevent getting lunched and there's a chance she will claim at any point she's close to a mislunch.

Also by her claiming this means scum might let her live in hopes that town would eventually mislunch her. Most likely town would believe her claim and probably treat her like a miller claim where they only consider her a suspect later on if her voting record/actions have been bad and they are narrowing down on suspects.

I kind of wonder if in this scenario we should make it so that she isn't allowed to roleclaim or at the very least explain what the punishment is for her death and what activates it. The flavor reason is that she is scared and doesn't know if she can trust anyone.

That has it's own problems as well though.
 
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lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Scenario 2: What if Yonah punishes everyone for dying in general.

-Yonah is killed early game, nothing happens the next night phase and all this means is that town knows they can freely scum hunt because they'll be there in the morning to post. Scum also gets to sit it out and plan their moves, unafraid of being killed. Gossip can still die if he picks non-town (this all parts of the game if Gossip hider not RB'd)

-Yonah is killed middle game, nothing happens the next night phase and all this means is that town knows they can scumhunt and scum can plan their next move.

-Yonah is killed near end game, giving town another night to finally figure out who the last scum is and live the next day to tell the tale. Scum can plan a last minute gambit to save themselves.

Honestly having both sides be RB'd might be too useful to both sides though as it gets closer to endgame it makes it harder for scum and prolongs them possibly winning,

Definitely prefer doing an either or option.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Scenario 3: What if Yonah punishes scum when she is NK'd.

-Yonah is NK'd early game, scum are sitting ducks unless their BPs are still active, this is a pretty dangerous time for them since we have a night Vig out there, the MD is useless role fisher might get a hit. But a lot of players so there is a chance that nothing majorly bad happens.

-Yonah is NK'd early game, scum are sitting ducks especially if BP has been hit, the vig probably has used their shot but there is another potential vig waiting so still an issue. Less players so more of a risk useful powers will be used on them correctly unless they are out of shots.

-Yonah is NK'd near end game, scum is sitting ducks though most likely both vig have used their shots as have investigatives. Not getting a kill means prolonging the game and may even prevent a win.

Over all Yonah's death probably affects scum the most so it seems unfair to make it a scum only punishment.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Conclusion we have two ways of doing it:

1. Yonah only punishes town via mislunch with Endgame being the only real dangerous time.

2. We make it that Yonah punishes whoever takes her out that way the ones to blame for her death gets punished. If she gets Mislunched then town is RB'd meaning Scum gets a free NK. Since Yonah would claim before she gets lunched she would most likely live till longer in the game which makes her a risk to town and could win it for scum if they get her mislunched correctly.

If she dies via scum town gets a free night to investigate while scum is at the risk of being killed by a vig possibly depending on when in the game it happens. If it's at endgame then that gives town another night which might happen if town is refusing to lunch her and Scum keeps her alive until near endgame thinking they can kill her for a win the next night they will be proven wrong because they don't know about the NK punishment.

In the scheme of things this makes it worse for scum especially if Kaine is the one to kill her so it might be better to go with 1, but i like the idea of one side getting punished for a mistake they made. XD
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Thanks Loki for doing the comparisons. From looking, I think the big holdout is what happens during endgame overly affecting Mafia. What if we time Yonah's power to only work until day 4 or 5 so it doesn't get to that point where mafia find themselves unable to win at lylo.

I do like the idea of seperating the Mafia/town RB by how she dies, that could be incredibly interesting. The caveat being, if we tell Yonah in her role pm then she might be eager to suicide by 'vig'. Although that might be interesting to see, especially if it gives our Hunter a free night to search for the Facade trio.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Scenario 1: What if Yonah punishes town only for being ML'd

-Yonah is Mislunched early in the game causes town to be easily picked off by scum. This doesn't mean much as there is a lot of town left, it just means there's a chance that a really useful power gets taken out. The only townie with protections is the gossip hider and if he can't be RB'd he is fine. I think it's okay that we let him still gossip since he gets killed if he hides behind non-town or the town he picked dies.

-Yonah is mislunched middle of game resulting in another towny dead. Over all this still isn't bad as there are still a lot of townies around, it's just an issue if they keep mislunching though there is the concern that Gretel might kill Nier the same night but hey good job Scum for finding him.

-Yonah is mislunched near endgame resulting in scum getting a kill and possibly even the win. This is probably when it is the worst for her to get mislunched honestly.

How realistically could each of these scenarios occur? I'd say the first case is probably the least likely as Yonah's player would probably roleclaim to prevent getting lunched and there's a chance she will claim at any point she's close to a mislunch.

Also by her claiming this means scum might let her live in hopes that town would eventually mislunch her. Most likely town would believe her claim and probably treat her like a miller claim where they only consider her a suspect later on if her voting record/actions have been bad and they are narrowing down on suspects.

I kind of wonder if in this scenario we should make it so that she isn't allowed to roleclaim or at the very least explain what the punishment is for her death and what activates it. The flavor reason is that she is scared and doesn't know if she can trust anyone.

That has it's own problems as well though.
I'm putting my money down, town won't let Yonah live past 4 days if she claims unless she is really, really convincing. They just don't have that capacity, and scum will surely be pushing things around in the background for her mislunch. Don't underestimate town paranoia.

Actually, the only way she gets cleared is if we put out a mod confirm or the fisherman fishes her role out, haha.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Thanks Loki for doing the comparisons. From looking, I think the big holdout is what happens during endgame overly affecting Mafia. What if we time Yonah's power to only work until day 4 or 5 so it doesn't get to that point where mafia find themselves unable to win at lylo.

I do like the idea of seperating the Mafia/town RB by how she dies, that could be incredibly interesting. The caveat being, if we tell Yonah in her role pm then she might be eager to suicide by 'vig'. Although that might be interesting to see, especially if it gives our Hunter a free night to search for the Facade trio.

Lol but the whole point i kind of made is that her power is basically the most useful near endgame since depending on how she dies will either give town or scum an advantage.

That's true, we might accidentally end up making her a jester except she is trying to bait a NK instead of getting mislunched. I almost wonder if we shouldn't tell her what the punishment is... but is that not allowed in a non-bastard game?

Also I've been wondering would Roc be unaffected by the RB'd in either case since he's neutral? It'd suck for Kalil and Beepy if their BP isn't active that one night which is again why i want to know if BPs can be RB'd.

I'm putting my money down, town won't let Yonah live past 4 days if she claims unless she is really, really convincing. They just don't have that capacity, and scum will surely be pushing things around in the background for her mislunch. Don't underestimate town paranoia.

Actually, the only way she gets cleared is if we put out a mod confirm or the fisherman fishes her role out, haha.
And yes you are right that town paranoia is a thing.

However there is a scenario where yonah's player is largely town read so town leaves her alone until later in the game. There is a chance that she'll be correctly rolefished the odds are not favorable and it's probably more likely that the scum Role Cop will found out her power before then. Since princesses usually affect town when they die, there is a possibility that she may be NK'd by them thinking something will happen but thre's also a chance they leave her alone as a result.

What's more likely to happen is that she probably gets NK'd before anyone finds out in that scenario.

I'm still fairly confident though that if she were about to be lunched, Yonah's player would roleclaim and then it depends on town believing her claim so depending on when this happens will detemine how long she lives after the fact.

Mind you if she's about to be lunched and is one vote away from a turbo, then she's possibly screwed either way because Jaykob will just hammer since he's the hammerer (if he's alive at that point in any case). XD
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Another question i have for everyone is what are we doing about the alignment cop? General opinion appears to be that we should remove that power all together and let Neun be a sleepwalker, but if we do then Kaine doesn't need to be a miller unless we want to something deceitful like having the scum RB claim Alignment Cop.

The RB claiming AC covers up why there are two RB in the game, with the counter to that being our Role Fisher if he successfully learns their role which again the odds aren't high considering the number of players and him having a 30% chance.

Now us tricking town into thinking there's an AC based on the miller kind of fits Nier the game in a way XD but the issue there is that when the RB flips, that'll make Kaine look worse because they'll realize there is no AC in game.

One proposal by Vere was that we make Noir a Godfather as a counter to the AC which would allow Neun to still be one. If he stays one then he'd probably be a 1 shot anyways additionally since we have so many investigative powers as it is.

So based on what I said above, should we have Neun be a sleepwalking AC or just a sleepwalker?
 
Not telling the punishment wouldn't be allowed iirc. I think it'd be fun to have the Miller as a misdirection. I think either is fine for Neun to be honest.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Not telling the punishment wouldn't be allowed iirc. I think it'd be fun to have the Miller as a misdirection. I think either is fine for Neun to be honest.
I was figuring as much on that so I guess we'll just have to decide based on what seems fair to both sides then factoring that in as well.

I'm glad you agree with me about the miller thing because I was personally thinking how miller fits Kaine perfectly as a character so I definitely want her to have it regardless whether Neun is an AC or not.

See for those unaware Kaine is an outcast in pretty much all the villages she visits because she is possessed by a shade and other reasons. All of our mafia characters and our neutrals are shades so it makes perfect sense that she'd be a miller. Additionally it will throw suspicion on her if a AC doesn't flip which would also fit Kaine pretty good as well.

As for whether we should or not, I personally thinking giving him one AC shot wouldn't hurt the game too much, I understand that town has a lot of investigative powers with the MD and role fisher, but we have counters to the MD now and the role fisher has pretty weak odds of being useful finding scum powers, if the AC has two foils in the form of a miller and a GF then his one shot seems reasonable.

Actually looking at the scum powers, the only one that would probably get a lot of problems is the RBer because the town RBer can counter claim if he tries to claim town, and the Role Cop. I'm not sure how people would react to the hunter, but SL is a Joat and since Nier is one it's possible people might accept we have two of them especially since there are two Vigs.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
If Neun isn't an AC we should def considering giving scum fake powers to claim if they want to go with their characters and an AC could be one of them. We don't have to include the powers though. Sometimes it's more fun to see what scum comes up with especially with the names we are supplying like Mayor of the Aerie, Blacksmith, and Gideon. XD
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Next question, how does the sleepwalker in our community's games work specifically? From what I'm aware based on the mafia wiki i used that the player just basically visits a random player without them knowing they do this.
 

OceanicAir

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Yeah, that's pretty much it. I think they know they are a sleepwalker, but they don't know/have no control their actions.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Yeah, that's pretty much it. I think they know they are a sleepwalker, but they don't know/have no control their actions.

Okay then sounds reasonable. I was kind of thinking it'd be fun if neun's player got random flavor every night that is completely useless game wise but is stuff like "this person broke rule 234 and 342" and they'd be notified in the PM that it is useless, but it might be easier on the mods and I.e. Vere and I if we just tell him that's he's a rulechecking sleepwalker in his PM with the flavor that he's so dedicated to following the rules and that others do it as well that he'll check on them in his sleep. XD
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Okay guys, what else do we need to discuss?

Here are the questions I think I still on the table:

-What is the overall opinion on how we should handle Yonah?
-Should Neun just be a sleepwalker instead of a sleepwalking AC (I'm leaning towards the former)?
-Does town and scum seem more balanced now?
-How can we buff scum with the extra abilities they will get if certain scum die?
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I feel like it's pretty balanced right now, let's wait for OA too though.
Yep we should also here from Vere as well.

Do you have any opinions on the other matters I brought up such as what powers scum could get or how we handle the Yonah situation?
 
Yep we should also here from Vere as well.

Do you have any opinions on the other matters I brought up such as what powers scum could get or how we handle the Yonah situation?
I need to reread some stuff before then, I'm sorry, like I said I'm pretty busy here in Germany
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I need to reread some stuff before then, I'm sorry, like I said I'm pretty busy here in Germany
Yeah I get that and that's totally cool XD Hope you have having a good time in Germany c:
 
Yeah I get that and that's totally cool XD Hope you have having a good time in Germany c:
I am, thanks haha. So for Yona I think it's more fair if, if they get lynched, scum gets a double night or an extra kill if you will. If they get nk'd then town gets a double day.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I am, thanks haha. So for Yona I think it's more fair if, if they get lynched, scum gets a double night or an extra kill if you will. If they get nk'd then town gets a double day.
oooooh I like that. Let's see what @Verelios thinks but that sounds a lot more fun. I'd lean towards double day/night.

Flavor could be that her death caused everyone to be in mourning resulting in either no one sleeping/doing anything.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
If they have a double night then that's more chance of kills anyways.

The only one that'd benefit from a double night would be the hider if he doesn't pick non town either night as it'd give him more chances to talk but there's a risk his conversation partner and him die. XD
 

Verelios

Were-elios
oooooh I like that. Let's see what @Verelios thinks but that sounds a lot more fun. I'd lean towards double day/night.

Flavor could be that her death caused everyone to be in mourning resulting in either no one sleeping/doing anything.
That does sound interesting, I like that solution. Now we have to think of ways to stop Yonah from suiciding.
 
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