Finishing the design

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Hey, everyone!

This was a design that was put on hold by its original owner, and I'm here to resume it and see it to completion.
In the other threads on this board, you can see what was discussed and already adjusted in the design back when it was originally sent for reviewing. I ask you to please read those threads first to have a better grasp of the ideas behind the design.

I'm doing this because this game will soon enter the "Adopt-a-design" program, where players interested in hosting a game without designing one can do so by adopting a finished design.
Also I would like the people here to be aware that the original owner will still be credited as the creator of the design; my name will not appear anywhere and I'm really just doing this to keep things moving.

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With that said,
here is the design in its most updated form: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ErwoLvMefe1juZg0FiSLNdUAQXuKWHy0wyNNei8524k/edit?usp=sharing
Let's see this through!
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
Hi Pedro

This is a strange game. I have a lot of thoughts about what is going on but let me make sure I understand the game first.

This is a costume game on Outer AND each player has a 2nd hidden identity that serves almost zero purpose outside of the neutral role. This double character aspect doesn't appear to be part of the original design, or at least I can't see that Fran was planning that.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Hi Pedro

This is a strange game. I have a lot of thoughts about what is going on but let me make sure I understand the game first.

This is a costume game on Outer AND each player has a 2nd hidden identity that serves almost zero purpose outside of the neutral role. This double character aspect doesn't appear to be part of the original design, or at least I can't see that Fran was planning that.
hi hi!
Yeah, it is weird xD


There are some special features that aren't listed in the spreadsheet:

- This is a costume game. The game will run here (OuterMafia) and all the players will have their name changed. I already talked with Retro about this and he said that this was doable.

- The players will be asigned a character of any media (I still don't know which ones, so if you have any suggestion is welcomed) and that will be their username and their avatar here.

This is where Fran said that people would play the game under a different account (that's what I got from "username and avatar"). He didn't say which media so I picked Star Wars and made every account be an armored soldier just because.


But here, Fran also mentions a secret identity beyond the character used above, which I took to be the player's flavor name:

- All the player's are forbidden to share their true identity in the game (they will be warned about this before the game start) or sharing if they found out who someone else is.

- Scum won't also know the identity of their partners.

- The identity of the player will be shared after they have died.


And here he explains that yup, this hidden flavor name is only there in the design for the Neutral role, it's not used anywhere else.

The guesser has to guess the actual name of the player. There will be in the initial post 2 lists: one with the actual players names and one with the names that they will be using in the game. They have to guess who is who in the game before some team guess. He will have better chances the longer he stays in the game.

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So you, Faddy, would join the game and receive an account called "Stormtrooper", but your flavor name would be "Anakin" and you can't tell that to anyone. I think that's clearer now, it was also confusing to me haha
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
Pedro that is not how I read that at all.

I read it as there would be a public player list and no one would be able to say who they really were. So I couldn't say "this is faddy" during the game. I thought it was a similar role to my Power Rangers role but instead of finding 1 specific person the neutral has to correctly identify any 3 people behind the costumes.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Oh.... wow.... yes, that makes much more sense. Omg, i am sorry, i truly overthought that sentence :c Yes yes yes you're right, the neutral just has to guess who's the person playing under "Stormtrooper", which would be "faddy". GOD, that's much simpler. Let me edit the spreadsheet

I am the worst.
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
Oh.... wow.... yes, that makes much more sense. Omg, i am sorry, i truly overthought that sentence :c Yes yes yes you're right, the neutral just has to guess who's the person playing under "Stormtrooper", which would be "faddy". GOD, that's much simpler. Let me edit the spreadsheet

I am the worst.

LOL.

Guess what, I still hate that neutral role. I would get rid of it completely. Trying to work out real identities is against the spirit of the game and I didn't really enjoy it when I had the role. It is also an impossible role for someone who is new or has only played a few games in the community. And it is similar to Power Rangers role.

Here is an idea for a neutral. They have to find 3 vanillas/goon and when they do the targeted player must change costume (use a new account). So it is like a cult but not a cult. That does make the neutral a vanilla cop but that doesn't definitely help either side.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
I like the role that Fran built and will keep him. Only a few players have a recognizable posting style, and old players will only have an advantage with the Neutral role *if* such players also join the game and *if* they decide to play the way they use to and not change things around.

That another costume game had it doesn't bother me either considering we have these types of games once per year at best.
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
I like the role that Fran built and will keep him. Only a few players have a recognizable posting style, and old players will only have an advantage with the Neutral role *if* such players also join the game and *if* they decide to play the way they use to and not change things around.

That another costume game had it doesn't bother me either considering we have these types of games once per year at best.

I do not think this is a good idea. I have played this role and it was pretty easy to work out who was who with just a little effort. In Power Rangers I worked out Fireblend in two phases but I also had a list of 5 or 6 other people I was certain of.

Then how does this role work with replacements. You can't announce a new player because then you have to add them to the list for the neutral and that gives the game away. So how to you do it to keep it fair?

I didn't find it a particularly fun role to play. And the best tactics verge on e-stalking. Working out who is online when by reading Mafia games and Era posts. "Oh this person starts posting at 10pm GMT, that is probably Stan." and I don't think the other people playing Power Rangers were content with the role either.
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
I share Faddy's concerns at least in regards to handle replacements. What would the process be for that? I'm neutral on the rest of his argument having both never been a similar role nor having ever been in a costume game.

Does the Role Cop simply learn a role in the game or do they get the associated account that has the role as well?
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
It's not supposed to be an impossible wincon to begin with (I'm personally not a fan of hard neutral wincons), but it can be difficult depending on who joins the game with them and if there's a homogeneous group of playstyles.
As for the replacement side of it, I could ask the scheduling team to not post the replacement list in order, or the list at all, and not announce in the thread when someone got replaced; think that's how it was done with Power Rangers.

On e-stalking, beyond that being a little unsportmanslike it's the same long series of "ifs" I posted above, and on a community with ~60 active players I don't think one or two specific members joining the game and giving the Neutral a small advantage, if they have an identifiable behavior, is enough reason to remove it. I still don't want to remove it so I hope we can discuss other roles~

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Nat, on the Role Cop I was thinking that it would get the account name of a random person, and their role name. You think it's too much, and it should only know that a certain role exists in the setup?
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
I wish there was an additional town role that if hit by the RNG of the Role Cop would potentially lead them to think they're scum. As is there's a decent chance that the Role Cop would be able to serve as a quasi-second cop alongside the weak one. I do think it works well that scum have two roles that could likely be mistaken for town (assuming Goon would show as Vanilla - which if the Role Cop learns the account I think it needs to).

Another note - I think you should revisit the Flavor/Account names. They're all fairly similar which could make parsing the thread harder than it needs to be. Some additional differentiation could help (the theme can remain Star Wars).
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
I wish there was an additional town role that if hit by the RNG of the Role Cop would potentially lead them to think they're scum. As is there's a decent chance that the Role Cop would be able to serve as a quasi-second cop alongside the weak one. I do think it works well that scum have two roles that could likely be mistaken for town (assuming Goon would show as Vanilla - which if the Role Cop learns the account I think it needs to).

Considering there's already a Jailer/RB and a Motion Detector, the only other role that I can think of that can look both Town and Scum that's not already there is a Bulletproof, but I don't know if that helps Town too much. What do y'all think?
And Role Cop doesn't get "Vanilla" as result (I know you already know this, just making my point). If for the Role Cop to get "Goon" as result you'd need it to not get the account name as well, then I could make that concession so it can be approved.

Another note - I think you should revisit the Flavor/Account names. They're all fairly similar which could make parsing the thread harder than it needs to be. Some additional differentiation could help (the theme can remain Star Wars).

Hm, I made that on purpose so they would be hard to differentiate, but you're right that it would be hard for people to remember who's who. I'll change the names around when I can.
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
I think with the commuter and jailer there is enough likliehood of a night without a kill that town should lose one vanilla player.

The overall PR balance is fine imo. If there is a worry about the role cop being too strong then downgrade it to not getting the role name and instead only getting if the player is a PR or not. i.e. returns Flame Trooper - Not Vanilla. Goon and vanilla-ised player return as vanilla.

I agree with Natiko about the names, too many Troopers. I think getting a bunch of bad guy names and just randomising them into the roles is fine. So having big name baddies like Darth Vader would be fine.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Done, made the name changes! And I'm with you on the commuter/jailer, so I'm removing one townie and making this a 18-player game.

I... kinda like turning the Role Cop into a Vanilla Cop, with the Vanillaiser potentially creating false positives for them. It's up to y'all as well.
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
Done, made the name changes! And I'm with you on the commuter/jailer, so I'm removing one townie and making this a 18-player game.

I... kinda like turning the Role Cop into a Vanilla Cop, with the Vanillaiser potentially creating false positives for them. It's up to y'all as well.
I like all these changes and think switching to a Vanilla Cop is a good idea - would it still be passive?

Did you ever decide on that idea I mentioned to you awhile back regarding that kill modifier?
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Changed it to a Vanilla Cop then, and yep still passive.

And yeah, I was just waiting for us to get these other things done to bring it up.
Nat shared with me an idea he had of a Mafia role, and I liked it a lot and would like to see if it could work in this setup, replacing one of the current roles:

It would be a Mafioso with a specific kill modifier: when killing a player, it would remove their own account from the game while taking ownership of the target's account.

For example: Player A, a Townie, has Account 1. Player B, this Mafioso, has Account 2.
When Player B kills Player A, Player A is removed from the game but Account 2 is flipped alongside that, and Player B starts using Account 1 instead.

To make it fair, Player B would still return "Not Town" and "Not Vanilla" if investigated under the new account.

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Essentially, the Mafia team could kill someone with good town cred and take control of that account, from then on pretending to be a good person. I am aware that this is very powerful, and I'd be willing to weaken the rest of the team if this was allowed by y'all.
 
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Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
I really like that idea. It has nice interactions with the neighbouriser and the neutral.

If I were to nerf the mafia team in compensation I would make the JOAT 1x strong, 1x ninja. And the new mafia role would replace the Silencer imo. I think even without the new role the JOAT needed nerfed since giving more than 1 buffed shot of a type allows mafia to be careless with it.
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
I think Faddy’s suggestions make sense for the balance with this change as well.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Yay, thanks for accepting it! I made the changes above and also wrote some preliminary role PMs. Please check them to see if they're correct, if they need something else explained, or if they can be rewritten in a clearer way, or anything else c:
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
The JOAT PM now has the number of shots, but it still has a caveat about not using the same modifier on consecutive nights which is now moot. Some other clarifications:

If the Costume Thief targets someone that is in the neighbor chat - will they then enter the chat as well? It's kind of a weird interaction since they aren't getting their target's role or anything, but I think otherwise it could lead to an immediate gotcha that dooms the mafia team.

Would the Goon show as vanilla to the vanilla cop?

I want to get a little clarification on your intention for the Costume Thief - so when Player A (Mafia) kills Player B (town) it will say Player B has died! and then flip the PM for Player A? Or are you going to make it clear that Player B and the flipped PM are separate?

Order of Operations - Should the Vanillaiser really go before the Jailer? I would think the actual targeting by the Vanillaiser would occur after the jail but before the kill, then being impacted by the vanillaiser's shot the following night would occur first (even before the commute).

For replacements - you have to at least have the list of possible replacements otherwise the Identity Guesser may not even know what viable guesses there are, but if a player ever makes it clear they're dropping and you update the actual player list that's an easy guess for them. I'm still not sure what the exact plan is for this I suppose.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
The JOAT PM now has the number of shots, but it still has a caveat about not using the same modifier on consecutive nights which is now moot.

ugh, i'm dumb. fixed that too.

Would the Goon show as vanilla to the vanilla cop?

yup.

If the Costume Thief targets someone that is in the neighbor chat - will they then enter the chat as well? It's kind of a weird interaction since they aren't getting their target's role or anything, but I think otherwise it could lead to an immediate gotcha that dooms the mafia team.

Yes. the thief doesn't get the target's role, but the target's account was invited to the neighbor chat so they'll still have access to it.

Order of Operations - Should the Vanillaiser really go before the Jailer? I would think the actual targeting by the Vanillaiser would occur after the jail but before the kill, then being impacted by the vanillaiser's shot the following night would occur first (even before the commute).
This was just copied from Fran's design. I had to think about it for a bit but I agree: on the following night, someone should turn into vanilla before doing their action, whatever it is. But the Vanillaiser's shot in the previous night shouldn't have that high of a priority. Made the change.

For replacements - you have to at least have the list of possible replacements otherwise the Identity Guesser may not even know what viable guesses there are, but if a player ever makes it clear they're dropping and you update the actual player list that's an easy guess for them. I'm still not sure what the exact plan is for this I suppose.

I wouldn't update the player list during the game for replacements; obviously saying that X replaced Y would give the Guesser an easy guess so I wouldn't do that. But even without the Guesser, if I said "X replaced Y" I would be sharing someone's real identity which goes against the game's gimmick.

I want to get a little clarification on your intention for the Costume Thief - so when Player A (Mafia) kills Player B (town) it will say Player B has died! and then flip the PM for Player A? Or are you going to make it clear that Player B and the flipped PM are separate?

I realized this is a little more complex than I thought so originally. I'm thinking of saying something like:

"Player B has died!... and here is their killer's role PM:"

then I put the PM for Player A.

I added more words to the Costume Thief's PM to better explain my thoughts behind the role, but I fear it got too wordy so I'd appreciate if someone could edit the text for clarity.

Here is the new Costume Thief's PM:

Welcome to Costume Party Mafia!

You are Itchy, a Costume Thief.

As a Mafia team you share a faction kill you may perform once per night with the command Kill: <PLAYER NAME>.

Once per game, when you perform the faction kill and remove your target from the game, you will take control of their account.
On the following day, it will be announced that your target's real identity has left the game, but this role PM will be flipped. Furthermore, players will be aware that you have taken over someone's account.
Under that new account, your role and alignment remains the same. If you are removed from the game under the new account, your target's original role PM will be flipped. And again, players will be aware that that was the account that was robbed.
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
I wouldn't update the player list during the game for replacements; obviously saying that X replaced Y would give the Guesser an easy guess so I wouldn't do that. But even without the Guesser, if I said "X replaced Y" I would be sharing someone's real identity which goes against the game's gimmick.
I think that works then - just would be important to get a good list of replacements since the moment you run out and have to go back to find more it'll become obvious.


I realized this is a little more complex than I thought so originally. I'm thinking of saying something like:

"Player B has died!... and here is their killer's role PM:"

then I put the PM for Player A.

I added more words to the Costume Thief's PM to better explain my thoughts behind the role, but I fear it got too wordy so I'd appreciate if someone could edit the text for clarity.

Here is the new Costume Thief's PM:

Welcome to Costume Party Mafia!

You are Itchy, a Costume Thief.

As a Mafia team you share a faction kill you may perform once per night with the command Kill: <PLAYER NAME>.

Once per game, when you perform the faction kill and remove your target from the game, you will take control of their account.
On the following day, it will be announced that your target's real identity has left the game, but this role PM will be flipped. Furthermore, players will be aware that you have taken over someone's account.
Under that new account, your role and alignment remains the same. If you are removed from the game under the new account, your target's original role PM will be flipped. And again, players will be aware that that was the account that was robbed.
What about if you don't flip the killer's PM at the time, but make it very clear what happened? Something like...

Welcome to Costume Party Mafia!

You are Itchy, a Costume Thief.

As a Mafia team you share a faction kill you may perform once per night with the command Kill: <PLAYER NAME>.

Once per game, when you perform the faction kill and remove your target from the game, you will take control of their account. On the following day, it will be announced that your target's real identity has been removed from the game while revealing their costume has been taken over by the Mafia. The costume you have left behind will be revealed as well.

Under that new account, your role and alignment remains the same. If you are removed from the game under the new account, your role PM AND your target's original role PM will be revealed. Players will be aware it was the account that was robbed.



Then the message on the day it occurs could be like...

Player A has died!

Their costume has been stolen by the Mafia. The Mafia have left behind the costume of [whatever]. No role PM will be revealed at this time.


Then when they die...

A Mafia has died!

[Mafia Role PM Here]

They stole Player A's Costume. Player A's Role was...

[Player A Role PM Here]
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Okay, I like this better and it's simpler too. thanks for the help!
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
I think giving the information that the costume does not belong to the dead player makes the costume switching of negative utility for the mafia team. There is added pressure in pretending to be someone else.

Mafia need some incntive to use the role. Either by gaining the role of the costume they take or the costume switch is only revealed on the mafia's death.

There is already a huge trap for mafia anyway. If they hit the neighbouriser with the costume power and that role flips then everyone in the neighbour chat will know immediately that the neighbouriser costume is now mafia.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
I think giving the information that the costume does not belong to the dead player makes the costume switching of negative utility for the mafia team. There is added pressure in pretending to be someone else.

Mafia need some incntive to use the role. Either by gaining the role of the costume they take or the costume switch is only revealed on the mafia's death.

There is already a huge trap for mafia anyway. If they hit the neighbouriser with the costume power and that role flips then everyone in the neighbour chat will know immediately that the neighbouriser costume is now mafia.

I could have it gain the role of the costume it takes over, that doesn't sound too bad to me.
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
I could have it gain the role of the costume it takes over, that doesn't sound too bad to me.
This would be fun I feel like. It’s closer to some of the crazier ways I originally thought of implementing it, just wasn’t sure what would fit with this game.
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
I think this is all fine now.

The last bit of business is for you to set out how the game is handling the roster and replacements with regards to the neutral.

Is the game roster known to the neutral?
If yes, how are they advised on replacements?
If no, are sign ups going to be blind as well?
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
I made one last change to make the life of the neutral a little harder: there will be a list of every user who signed up for the game in the OP, regardless if they're in the game from the beginning or waiting in the replacement list.
For example: if 21 players signed up for the game, the names of the 18 who will be playing it and the 3 who are replacements will be in a single list.
This means that no player will know who amongst all those users is playing and who is not.

When the gamerunner replaces someone, they won't mention the name of the player leaving the game and won't update the player list, so this won't help the neutral.

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Let me know if this made the neutral's win condition too difficult now.
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
I think that’s completely fair and helps hide identities better.
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
I made one last change to make the life of the neutral a little harder: there will be a list of every user who signed up for the game in the OP, regardless if they're in the game from the beginning or waiting in the replacement list.
For example: if 21 players signed up for the game, the names of the 18 who will be playing it and the 3 who are replacements will be in a single list.
This means that no player will know who amongst all those users is playing and who is not.

When the gamerunner replaces someone, they won't mention the name of the player leaving the game and won't update the player list, so this won't help the neutral.

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Let me know if this made the neutral's win condition too difficult now.

I think that is a good solution. And I don't think it increases the difficulty in a significant way.

If there is a situation where we end up with replacements who were not on the original list then I think you tell the neutral who replaced out and their account. But that is a contingency I would hope isn't needed.

Approved on my end.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Thanks a lot, you two!!! I'll tell the Review Team this game has been approved, then put it up for adoption (maybe one of you two would like to grab it, lol).
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
This design has been given to the Adopt-a-design program. Here is some information about it, for its new owner:

Originally created by Fran, and reviewed by Roytheone, and Ty4on.
The review started on January 4th, 2018, and was halted on May 8th, 2018 after a long period of inactivity.
The design was then recovered on July 29th, 2019 by Pedro, Faddy, and Natiko, and finished on October 2nd, 2019 with its approval.

Here is the design sheet you should use, with the role PMs and a space for you to track the night actions in your game: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...SLNdUAQXuKWHy0wyNNei8524k/edit#gid=1472390312
 
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