Death Stranding Design

[Natiko]

Hey everyone! Lets have a good time reviewing this perfectly normal and definitely balanced game:

[REDACTED]

14 player game, 10-3-1 breakdown alignment wise with a good chunk of roles in town set to give them some breathing room and then a neutral that can make things go completely sideways. Looking forward to getting this game in a state that's at least remotely good enough to run. Also I suspect this is bastard due to the role changes and not specifying how the messenger role actually works, but let me know.

 

[Natiko]

Also to add - I would like to focus tweaks in the areas of player count, items given out by the gift giver, and roles that can be introduced via the creator role. I don't want to tweak too much of the other stuff if at all possible.

 

[Ty4on]

"You have no limits on how many commands..."

Maybe specify a bit because it sounds like the blocker can block every player every night lol
Something like "you can perform your action and the kill at the same time" and should they get an extra power "you may use *power* in addition to your regular night actions"

 

[Natiko]

Good catch, I'll update that now!

 

[Natiko]

I updated that phrasing (let me know what you think) and I also added a little flavor to the BT role PM and a descriptor of ascetic because I forgot to initially.

 

[Ty4on]

I like the new phrasing in the PMs

I'm just chewing on balance. For town the theme seems to be protection with three protection roles, but that could help in a way stop a mass claim being too helpful by throwing doubt on the roles.
Seems clear from role PM, but hider has no investigative power and can hide behind mafia? What does the cop check result if hitting the neutral?

 

[Ty4on]

I would give a bastard rating due to mafia janitor (which automatically makes a game bastard i think) and messenger not knowing they’re just talking to mafia as you said. Also just number of effective powers in a game this small and possible interactions like a one shot cop hitting a godfather/miller role swap.

 

[Ty4on]

Eraser changes said player to have no flip?
Possible mafia strategy would be to erase all mafia members so they all flip blank.

I read that as a janitor at first (they kill then clean the scene so there’s no evidence left, but know the pm of who died).

 

[Ty4on]

One possible landmine is scum trapped making a bunch of no-kills. Hitting hider, hitting commuter, hitting doc target, hitting bulletproof, hitting revived player, hitting themself through switcher. Not that any one is wrong, but that the number of protections makes scum going three nights without a kill plausible which would be quite frustrating. I think a strong kill here is the wrong solution, too blunt and can still fail. Failing a strong kill is especially demoralizing for scum and just not fun in a game this small.

 

[Ty4on]

This is more a comment, but my initial impression of the neutral is that they end up with a “boring” win condition for the exciting role they have.
They’re arguably the most powerful role (in terms of how much they can change the game), but the only real goal is stay alive for three nights and perform action successfully.
One change I thought of (which does nerf them quite a bit) is needing to have three altered player alive in the game which would mean they have to choose someone they think is going to stay alive. Maybe more something along the line of providing a meaningful change like an evil mastermind.
There is also an incentive for the neutral to avoid giving anyone vig or vengeful since that would shorten the game, assuming they play optimally.

 

[Natiko]

I like the new phrasing in the PMs

I'm just chewing on balance. For town the theme seems to be protection with three protection roles, but that could help in a way stop a mass claim being too helpful by throwing doubt on the roles.
Seems clear from role PM, but hider has no investigative power and can hide behind mafia? What does the cop check result if hitting the neutral?

That is correct - they aren’t a weak version. They can hide on mafia and survive. I’m fine with either depending on what you all recommend. I would lean towards town/not town.

I would give a bastard rating due to mafia janitor (which automatically makes a game bastard i think) and messenger not knowing they’re just talking to mafia as you said. Also just number of effective powers in a game this small and possible interactions like a one shot cop hitting a godfather/miller role swap.

Yeah, I’m fine with that.

Eraser changes said player to have no flip?
Possible mafia strategy would be to erase all mafia members so they all flip blank.

I read that as a janitor at first (they kill then clean the scene so there’s no evidence left, but know the pm of who died).

Yes, player dies with no flip. I can reveal alignment only if we think it’s too strong as is. They can target mafia/self target.

One possible landmine is scum trapped making a bunch of no-kills. Hitting hider, hitting commuter, hitting doc target, hitting bulletproof, hitting revived player, hitting themself through switcher. Not that any one is wrong, but that the number of protections makes scum going three nights without a kill plausible which would be quite frustrating. I think a strong kill here is the wrong solution, too blunt and can still fail. Failing a strong kill is especially demoralizing for scum and just not fun in a game this small.

One thing that I tried to do is to make it so that there isn’t an automatic ‘clear’ on someone if they miss short of trying for hider on an odd night. If we’re concerned about too many whiffs I could give the goon a 1-shot day kill as well? Or alter one of the town roles, probably commuter I guess.

This is more a comment, but my initial impression of the neutral is that they end up with a “boring” win condition for the exciting role they have.
They’re arguably the most powerful role (in terms of how much they can change the game), but the only real goal is stay alive for three nights and perform action successfully.
One change I thought of (which does nerf them quite a bit) is needing to have three altered player alive in the game which would mean they have to choose someone they think is going to stay alive. Maybe more something along the line of providing a meaningful change like an evil mastermind.
There is also an incentive for the neutral to avoid giving anyone vig or vengeful since that would shorten the game, assuming they play optimally.

I could see making it so they have to have three living, but if I do that I think I’d add a secondary win condition of survivor so they can’t hit an unwinnable state.

Edit: And yes putting in roles they can use that would hurt their odds of winning was intentional (as it gives them increased odds of dying). This change would make them more likely to have to use said roles too. One thing I’ll have to do is run the math and see if they could use all roles before the game could end and if so I’ll need to come up with additional options.

 

[Ty4on]

That is correct - they aren't a weak version. They can hide on mafia and survive. I'm fine with either depending on what you all recommend. I would lean towards town/not town.

I think that's fine, only issue could be misunderstanding since hider is usually an investigative role. Theme of the game seems to be non-investigative with it only possible in a few cases.

Yes, player dies with no flip. I can reveal alignment only if we think it's too strong as is. They can target mafia/self target.

Hmm. I think strength wise the role itself is ok, it's the only strong role for mafia and while strong it's not quite an automatic advantage. Gonna chew a bit on where it can go from there, it does pull it a bit towards flipless which I'm not too familiar with.

One thing that I tried to do is to make it so that there isn't an automatic ‘clear' on someone if they miss short of trying for hider on an odd night. If we're concerned about too many whiffs I could give the goon a 1-shot day kill as well? Or alter one of the town roles, probably commuter I guess.

I agree with the philosophy of making it less likely to auto-clear. Not quite sure I have a clear solution here, what I saw as the main issue was creating a very frustrating worst case scenario for scum. My gut reaction was to remove healer, but that's a big change and makes the backup kinda useless.

I could see making it so they have to have three living, but if I do that I think I'd add a secondary win condition of survivor so they can't hit an unwinnable state.

Yeah, balance here was hard since it is kinda balanced to begin with. My philosophy was to give whoever got that role a more fun challenge to play with, but without quite knowing myself what it'd be lol. Maybe something like stir shit up, automatically win if they give vig to town that shoots scum or vig to scum that shoots a town PR as an example. That's maybe a bit complicated as it needs dozens of win conditions. It felt relevant to flavor tho to reward them for doing something that had an effect on the game versus just giving out a few powers that have no effect. Right now their main challenge is not hitting the commuter or hider, which they can't really do unless there's a claim, and avoiding death.
I'm maybe a bit too ambitious there :/

 

[Ty4on]

I think if Kojima flips it should either outright state the possible changes to roles or heavily hint at them altering them heavily to help town identify a possible godfather. Obviously not if he is erased tho lol

Another quite unlikely thing, but a one shot cop on godfather would suuuuck lol

 

[Ty4on]

Role cop for mafia? Too predictable? This helps them at night where they are otherwise in the dark as to who to target. Unfortunately it’s a fairly mafia role so not too helpful in a mass claim.

 

[Ty4on]

I guess the eraser works a bit like one assuming they get the erased Role

 

[Ty4on]

I’ve just talked random balance so far and never asked the first thing that popped into my mind.

What is the overall theme for this game? I feel like it’s important for me to understand so I can understand why things work like they do and general philosophy. I’ve sorta inferred Kojima madness from the neutral lol, but what about the town mafia and their interactions?
I just briefly looked up DS, but all I got from that was Kojima stealth game :p

 

[Ty4on]

Is avoiding death a theme?

 

[Natiko]

I think that's fine, only issue could be misunderstanding since hider is usually an investigative role. Theme of the game seems to be non-investigative with it only possible in a few cases.

Yeah, I’m usually fairly reserved in pure investigation roles since they’re not very interactive. Just takes most of the thinking out.

I agree with the philosophy of making it less likely to auto-clear. Not quite sure I have a clear solution here, what I saw as the main issue was creating a very frustrating worst case scenario for scum. My gut reaction was to remove healer, but that's a big change and makes the backup kinda useless.

The Protector? I’d rather leave that than Hider or Commuter. It’s a guaranteed save, but it’s also a one time use and clears no one (other than potentially the user of the power). The others can cause continual ossues

Yeah, balance here was hard since it is kinda balanced to begin with. My philosophy was to give whoever got that role a more fun challenge to play with, but without quite knowing myself what it'd be lol. Maybe something like stir shit up, automatically win if they give vig to town that shoots scum or vig to scum that shoots a town PR as an example. That's maybe a bit complicated as it needs dozens of win conditions. It felt relevant to flavor tho to reward them for doing something that had an effect on the game versus just giving out a few powers that have no effect. Right now their main challenge is not hitting the commuter or hider, which they can't really do unless there's a claim, and avoiding death.
I'm maybe a bit too ambitious there :/

I feel like that takes a little too much out of their hands. I could make it a reverse Arya from GOT. In that game I had a neutral that killed people and stole their powers and they would win by using x amount of them successfully. This could hand out powers and the player wins upon x amount of them using them (regardless of outcome). It’s a bit more complex but not too hyper specific.

I think if Kojima flips it should either outright state the possible changes to roles or heavily hint at them altering them heavily to help town identify a possible godfather. Obviously not if he is erased tho lol

Another quite unlikely thing, but a one shot cop on godfather would suuuuck lol

I’m not opposed to just revealing all of the possible roles as part of the flip if we think that’s the best choice. I can mull over more gift/change options that could allow the removal of the cop shot and miller/godfather entirely I suppose.

Role cop for mafia? Too predictable? This helps them at night where they are otherwise in the dark as to who to target. Unfortunately it’s a fairly mafia role so not too helpful in a mass claim.

I guess the eraser works a bit like one assuming they get the erased Role

I wasn’t originally intending them to get the role but if we think that’ll help mafia I’m not against modifying the role to do that.

I’ve just talked random balance so far and never asked the first thing that popped into my mind.

What is the overall theme for this game? I feel like it’s important for me to understand so I can understand why things work like they do and general philosophy. I’ve sorta inferred Kojima madness from the neutral lol, but what about the town mafia and their interactions?
I just briefly looked up DS, but all I got from that was Kojima stealth game :p

The inspiration on my end was to take a game that looks completely insane and with the extremely thin info I have put a game together based on it. That’s why the flavor is fairly light hearted and leaning into that. The role inspirations often came from the character names/short bits from the trailers. Death then became an indirect theme as a result. If there are roles we feel need to be completely reworked that’s okay - I’d like to preserve these roles in some form:

Protector, Creator, Dying, Eraser, Roleblock, vanilla, universal backup, Package Giver, and Messenger

 

[Ty4on]

I understand that theme more looking at Kojima’s role. The saving roles are to an extent balanced a bit by the rather large mafia to town ratio (30%).

I’ll try to make a flow chart of worst case scenario for town (and scum maybe) with probabilities. There’s a chance of a super early scum win, but it’s maybe ok if it’s super short.

The dying role is interesting. It’s a bit anti fun since you’re giving someone a worse than vanilla, but there is the challenge of trying to be killed at night, or lessen the blow of a mislynch since you’re already dying.

 

[Natiko]

I understand that theme more looking at Kojima’s role. The saving roles are to an extent balanced a bit by the rather large mafia to town ratio (30%).

I’ll try to make a flow chart of worst case scenario for town (and scum maybe) with probabilities. There’s a chance of a super early scum win, but it’s maybe ok if it’s super short.

The dying role is interesting. It’s a bit anti fun since you’re giving someone a worse than vanilla, but there is the challenge of trying to be killed at night, or lessen the blow of a mislynch since you’re already dying.

Yeah, that’s why I said if needed I could adjust the player count if we felt it was needed but with the saving roles I thought it might balance out some. Alternatively I can expand the game to a higher player count, but there would have to be more vanilla roles as opposed to the role madness I initially set out to do. I can’t think of too many other town roles to add when you also have the gifts and the Kojima role to account for. I do have other ideas for an additional neutral I could add if that might help pad things out player count wise.

Edit: As for the Dying role I do get that it’s a bummer to an extent but I think the idea of having incentive to bait a NK is fun while not making it as punishing to scum as hitting a BP is. Plus by the time they are set to die it’ll be a decent bit into the game.

 

[Sawneeks]

I really love the flavor/role names for all of these. 'Big Ass Ladder' got a good laugh out of me.

Gonna take the next post to break this down and sort it out. There's a lot here and Kojima's role being able to change nearly everyone makes balance very complicated.

Couple minor things first:
- Does the Eraser power work indefinitely? Say they hit Sorian N1 and he doesn't die until D4, is his role still gone?
- Messages ALWAYS go to scum even if the Lightning Rod goes to Town?
- Role Thief can steal Kojima?
- Vengeful dies but the Reviver brings them back. Do they still get to kill someone?
- 1-shot Vig is both day and night phases?
- If Kojima self-targets does their wincon change? If not I'd mention they can't self-target.
- 'ability' in Big Ass Ladder's role PM is misspelled

 

[Sawneeks]

Town:

- Package Giver (Track, Cop Check, Bulletproof, Lightning Rod)
- 1-shot Protector
- Dying (Day 4)
- Even Night Commuter
- Hider
- Universal backup (except Dying, Adrenaline Junkie, Vanilla, or Scum)
- Adrenaline Junkie
- Messenger (unknowingly always Scum)
- Loved
- Vanilla

Scum:

- Ascetic Goon
- Roleblocker
- 3-shot Eraser

Neutral:

- Role Changer (Miller/Godfather, Double Vote, Switcher, Vigilante, Reviver, Vengeful, Role Thief)

Hmmm. I agree with Ty that Town does have a good amount of protections on them while Scum doesn't have a huge way to combat it. However the added addition of the 3-shot Eraser on Scum makes them very strong so it sort...balances itself out? The worry would be Scum losing that right away to either a death or role change.

Not saying this is bad or not but I want to note it. Scum has an interesting advantage/disadvantage with their Ascetic Goon. They won't ever be Cop checked, tracked, etc. but they are still a Goon and that means they miss out on the potential Items and Role changes that are in play. I keep going back and forth if that's a good thing for scum or a bad thing for them considering losing a Roleblocker/Eraser is worse than what they may gain as opposed to losing the Goon and gaining a PR. Maybe...give the Ascetic to the Town vanilla....? It means they would always be stuck as a Vanilla while Scum could power up....?

Neutral: With all others being 1-shot I'd change the Switcher to a 1-shot as well considering how strong it is. Role Thief works during Day or Night, no? I like the idea of Scum getting the Thief and stealing the Reviver after someone claims it :p

 

[Natiko]

Couple minor things first:
- Does the Eraser power work indefinitely? Say they hit Sorian N1 and he doesn't die until D4, is his role still gone?

Yes, gone forever.

- Messages ALWAYS go to scum even if the Lightning Rod goes to Town?

Yes

- Role Thief can steal Kojima?

Oh man, I hadn’t even considered that. I want to say yes for the small chance of true and utter chaos, but it’s probably best to say no because if scum happened to make this happen I think it would break the game.

- Vengeful dies but the Reviver brings them back. Do they still get to kill someone?

No, since the revive happens prior to deaths - that’s why I stipulated no role PMs get posted. It basically makes the deaths null similar to the protector.

- 1-shot Vig is both day and night phases?

It’s night only.

- If Kojima self-targets does their wincon change? If not I'd mention they can't self-target.

Good catch, I’ll add that when I’m not on mobile.

- 'ability' in Big Ass Ladder's role PM is misspelled

I will also fix this. Thanks!

Hmmm. I agree with Ty that Town does have a good amount of protections on them while Scum doesn't have a huge way to combat it. However the added addition of the 3-shot Eraser on Scum makes them very strong so it sort...balances itself out? The worry would be Scum losing that right away to either a death or role change.

I do think giving them a 1-shot day kill could help alleviate the protection a bit since it couldn’t be stopped except by the BP. Is it too strong of a swing back to scum though? It wouldn’t be able to be used on D1.

Not saying this is bad or not but I want to note it. Scum has an interesting advantage/disadvantage with their Ascetic Goon. They won't ever be Cop checked, tracked, etc. but they are still a Goon and that means they miss out on the potential Items and Role changes that are in play. I keep going back and forth if that's a good thing for scum or a bad thing for them considering losing a Roleblocker/Eraser is worse than what they may gain as opposed to losing the Goon and gaining a PR. Maybe...give the Ascetic to the Town vanilla....? It means they would always be stuck as a Vanilla while Scum could power up....?

Hmm, that’s a fair point. If we don’t like the day kill for scum I could maybe make the goon normal, but given them the ability to turn someone ascetic (probably x-shot?). They submit the command during the day and whoever they choose is ascetic for the following night only. Then they could use it defensively. Not really any reason for them to ever use it on town players though. Hmm, or maybe a JOAT of some kind with that being a single ability?

Neutral: With all others being 1-shot I'd change the Switcher to a 1-shot as well considering how strong it is. Role Thief works during Day or Night, no? I like the idea of Scum getting the Thief and stealing the Reviver after someone claims it :p

I will change the switcher to 1-shot. Yes, the thief can use it anytime. Thinking on it it’s almost a quasi-cop. Makes me want to consider more taking out the regular cop shot and the miller/godfather.

 

[Ty4on]

A potentially OP strategy is hider hiding behind scum, effectively making them invulnerable. I can see this especially happening late in the game with the hider being a "strong" player who's able to escape the NK perpetually because they have good idea of the scum team. It may also happen by itself with the hider targeting scummy people who're unlikely targets for the NK to begin with which does very much simplify the hider's task of picking a spot.

A very direct solution to this I thought of was making a hider hiding behind scum susceptible to a regular NK on themselves (as if they weren't a hider), tho this does give town information should hider be the only NK and crumbed target.
Another solution would be a more general nerf like x shot or odd/even night tho that kinda makes them commuter-esque.

 

[Natiko]

Hmm, I’d probably remove the hider role before making it x-shot. I could move the hide to occur after the block to give scum a way to deal with it?

 

[Natiko]

Okay I made the following changes:

• 1-shot cop gift replaced with 1-shot silence gift (silences scum chat for the following day phase only)
• godfather/miller creator change option replaced with hated
• Switcher creator change option made 1-shot
• ascetic goon changed to a death marker (can mark a player each night, if a night phase begins with three living players marked one will die at random, can only trigger once). This lets mafia all be susceptible to the role changes but gives them a chance at an additional kill that isn't as easy as a day kill.
• [REDACTED]

 

[Ty4on]

Slight caution on making scum stronger.
Game is 10:3 which is scum favored (roughly balanced with no roles is 12:3)
There is a possible path of N1 scum hit hider's spot and get sent the kojima vig, assuming all mislynches and no saves D3 starts with just 4 townies left alive, effectively lylo.
From that we can see the town protection is important to balance them.

Two neutrals in a 15 player game is maybe a bit extreme :S
Both leaving the same day could kinda wreck havoc

 

[Natiko]

Okay, I hear you, added three more changes:

• Added a self-motion detector for town (it only detects motion on itself and it cannot be blocked)
• Added an oddity detector for town (detects if there is a role change, role PM does not clarify what counts as an oddity, this is essentially a fluff role for padding)
• Increased the wincon for the Creator to four role changes

The breakdown is now 12-3-2. Better?

 

[Natiko]

I may need to add a fourth scum..let me know your thoughts on that. If I do it'll strictly be a goon.

 

[Sawneeks]

Okay I made the following changes:

• 1-shot cop gift replaced with 1-shot silence gift (silences scum chat for the following day phase only)
• godfather/miller creator change option replaced with hated
• Switcher creator change option made 1-shot
• ascetic goon changed to a death marker (can mark a player each night, if a night phase begins with three living players marked one will die at random, can only trigger once). This lets mafia all be susceptible to the role changes but gives them a chance at an additional kill that isn't as easy as a day kill.
• [REDACTED]

Okay, I hear you, added three more changes:

• Added a self-motion detector for town (it only detects motion on itself and it cannot be blocked)
• Added an oddity detector for town (detects if there is a role change, role PM does not clarify what counts as an oddity, this is essentially a fluff role for padding)
• Increased the wincon for the Creator to four role changes

The breakdown is now 12-3-2. Better?

I'm kinda with Ty on this. Adding in another Neutral gives Town a way tougher time even if the Neutral is relatively harmless/beneficial. If you are looking to keep in that/add another Scum I'd beef up Town by 2 or 3 more people to keep the ratios even.

Self-motion and oddity detector for Town are both good adds. Death mark is also a good add for Scum, gives them another kill but they have to work for it a bit. I'm a little bit more hesitant on the 1-shot Silence since that automatically screws over Scum while the others need the benefit of targeting Scum directly. I'd almost say make the 1-shot Silence something that the receiver of the gift has to target another player with. If they hit scum then they get silenced, if not nothing happens.

Gonna step out for a minute but I plan to crunch some numbers and see how quickly this game can end and how viable some of these numbered wincons are.

 

[Natiko]

I'm kinda with Ty on this. Adding in another Neutral gives Town a way tougher time even if the Neutral is relatively harmless/beneficial. If you are looking to keep in that/add another Scum I'd beef up Town by 2 or 3 more people to keep the ratios even.

Self-motion and oddity detector for Town are both good adds. Death mark is also a good add for Scum, gives them another kill but they have to work for it a bit. I'm a little bit more hesitant on the 1-shot Silence since that automatically screws over Scum while the others need the benefit of targeting Scum directly. I'd almost say make the 1-shot Silence something that the receiver of the gift has to target another player with. If they hit scum then they get silenced, if not nothing happens.

Gonna step out for a minute but I plan to crunch some numbers and see how quickly this game can end and how viable some of these numbered wincons are.

You'd add 2-3 more town on top of what was already added to make it 14/15-3-2? That seems way town skewed since neither neutral are a "threat" to town. I can drop the second neutral if needed, it mainly served as a way to give more padding for town and intertwine with the original neutral. I guess I'm mostly confused on what ratio I should be shooting for. When it was 10-3-1 you both seemed to think it wasn't horribly far off the mark. I can't see how adding one benign neutral means we need to add 5 town with the only major changes to roles being the hider had a OP loophole removed and scum have a single, very conditional, one time extra kill lol

 

[Sawneeks]

You'd add 2-3 more town on top of what was already added to make it 14/15-3-2? That seems way town skewed since neither neutral are a "threat" to town. I can drop the second neutral if needed, it mainly served as a way to give more padding for town and intertwine with the original neutral. I guess I'm mostly confused on what ratio I should be shooting for. When it was 10-3-1 you both seemed to think it wasn't horribly far off the mark. I can't see how adding one benign neutral means we need to add 5 town with the only major changes to roles being the hider had a OP loophole removed and scum have a single, very conditional, one time extra kill lol

They aren't really aggressive threats but Town would still need to remove them in order to win. Right now it's 5 v 12 and in a worse case scenario we have:

12 Town v 3 Scum v 2 Neutrals
Day 1 mislynch (Protector dies) leaves us with 11 Town v 3 Scum v 2 Neutrals
Night 1 Scum kills a Townie AND the Hider. Scum marks 1 Townie and Kojima gives Scum a 1-shot Vig (removing Eraser or Roleblock)

Day 2 we're already at 9 Town v 3 Scum v 2 Neutral
Day 2 mislynch and not the Marked or Kojima'd role.
Night 2 is Scum kill, Vig kill on Town, second marked, second Kojima'd role

Day 3 we have 6 Town v 3 Scum v 2 Neutral. Town is already on the cusp of being outnumbered.
Another mislynch here, Marked goes off, Scum NK
Day 4 is at 3 Town v 3 Scum v 2 Neutral

Even if they lynch Scum on Day 4 there is a possibility Kojima leaves the next phase, Snake leaves as well, Dying dies, and a Scum NK
Day 5 is 2 Town v 2 Scum. Scum wins.

This isn't even counting a bad Vengeful kill that I forgot about until I finished this. >.>

Actually not as terrible as I thought it was going to be when I first set out to do this. Town does have a lot to combat this (Protector, Even Night, Hider-ish) at least on the NK side of things. Actually...yeah, I take back what I said about the numbers. This works out fairly well considering everything.

 

[Sawneeks]

Speaking of the second neutral though I'm up in the air about it. [REDACTED] Good luck to them.

 

[Natiko]

Just respond to random things:

• The neutrals do not count as threats to town and do not need to be eliminated for town to win
• Meant to mention about the silence - is it that strong even with it only impacting a single day phase (no night phases)?
• [REDACTED]

 

[Ty4on]

Okay, I hear you, added three more changes:

• Added a self-motion detector for town (it only detects motion on itself and it cannot be blocked)
• Added an oddity detector for town (detects if there is a role change, role PM does not clarify what counts as an oddity, this is essentially a fluff role for padding)
• Increased the wincon for the Creator to four role changes

The breakdown is now 12-3-2. Better?

I meant that from initial design the protection heavy roster from town somewhat offsets the numbers favoring scum. So keeping that in mind.

So taking a big look at the game it’d balance out ok-ish if a regular game has a couple of no kill nights assuming otherwise balanced.

I’m thinking loudly a lot lol

My main concerns are overall balance ofc (does the things I mentioned equalize balance), but also swinginess with a town that doesn’t lose PRs always able to avoid the NK and the hider. Hider swinginess is probably not that bad since they ideally pick an unlikely target, but there is the chance the player misunderstand their role and try hitting town.
The marker is a somewhat stabilizing role since that means the people they’re targeting aren’t dying.

 

[Ty4on]

The issue with two neutrals is they’re interfering too much.
They can take up the lynch, vote anti town for their benefit and there’s the chance both exit the game at the same time which could put a game that seems like it’s got a mislynch left into a mafia win.
It feels a bit bothersome for mafia and town to deal with and the low playercount makes two a bit odd.

 

[Ty4on]

I’m still on the initial design, but adding players sorta stabilizes a bit maybe. It’s close to role madness so a lot of shit is gonna happen at night lol.

 

[Natiko]

My main thing right now is if we have a design that can fluctuate between 10-12 town, 3-4 scum, and 1-2 non-threat neutrals what would be the best combinations to aim for?

RE: The idea of them both leaving the game at the same time - [REDACTED] Like I said, I don’t mind removing the second one, but I’m not as sold on the idea that adding a player that can’t directly harm town hurts their chances of winning that much. Personally when I did the math on 12-3-2 it seemed like scum actually were in the worse position.

 

[Ty4on]

Can't see any native way of making tables :(
Gotta paste it in, very simplified, but with roles intact there's a roughly 2.5/Town chance of a kill being stopped plus the Survivor who at least gets to help town for a while until they die. That's not that high and I see an average game getting 1-2 kills stopped.

 

[Ty4on]

I forgot to add neutral, but that's Town / Scum benefit apart from hated

 

[Ty4on]

I think 12:3:X is approaching quite town favored ignoring the scum benefits of eraser (since it's hard to calculate >.<) because we have a bunch of roles and roleless that's balanced.

Using this point system I found somewhere and putting in a bunch of 2 pointers for those hard to calculate (commuter, hider, backup, package) and 1 for the rest (assuming the slight erring below overcomes dying's negative offset) I got 14 for town and 13.5 for mafia with no roles added in. That was with the old 10:3:1 and I did nothing with the neutral role.

 

[Natiko]

So does the goon being updated to the Marked role help balance that out some? I feel like I'm losing perspective on where we are on this design as far as what we think should be cut/added/etc. lol

Fake edit: So are we thinking the original design was more balanced? What if I toss the second neutral, and toss the hider and oddity detector from town? Puts us back at 10-3-1 and the self motion detector is weaker than the hider I would think? Maybe?

 

[Ty4on]

11:3:X I think should be ok, seems that way with marking system.

 

[Ty4on]

Fake edit: So are we thinking the original design was more balanced? What if I toss the second neutral, and toss the hider and oddity detector from town? Puts us back at 10-3-1 and the self motion detector is weaker than the hider I would think? Maybe?

Waaaaay weaker IMO :P
At least if hider realizes their role and is able to find unlikely targets.

I think that should be ok, *maybe* add another (vanilla?) townie, especially if the marking scum still in the game.

 

[Ty4on]

Fuck, I thought the protector was general doctor

 

[Ty4on]

I was wondering if we could make it so doctor could be used N1 -_-

 

[Ty4on]

General protection of everybody is kinda...

>.>

<.<

stabilizing

----------------------------------

It's almost a guaranteed night of no-kill. Almost because they could die or go for the yolo play and try to save it until a cop claims or smth.

 

[Natiko]

Waaaaay weaker IMO :P
At least if hider realizes their role and is able to find unlikely targets.

I think that should be ok, *maybe* add another (vanilla?) townie, especially if the marking scum still in the game.

Fuck, I thought the protector was general doctor

With the protector having a nearly 100% chance to save one person do you think we’re okay at 10-3-1 instead of adding another role? For the record if we make it 11-3-1 I’m just keeping the oddity detector since it’s useless and I think role madness with one vanilla is fine.

 

[Ty4on]

Not sure if that is stronger or weaker

*keeps chewing*

but it does at least make the backup weaker lol

————————

You’re thinking 10:3:1 with new role setup? No hider, but plus motion detector?

 

[Sawneeks]

Honestly if you're between 10:3:1 and 11:3:1 with just adding in the Oddity Detector you should be fine with either choice. It does weaken the Back Up but Town also has 9 PRs PLUS the possibility of getting items and different roles. Even then not having that in should be OK.

Just respond to random things:

• The neutrals do not count as threats to town and do not need to be eliminated for town to win
• Meant to mention about the silence - is it that strong even with it only impacting a single day phase (no night phases)?
• [REDACTED]

might be my rust showing but isn't the universal rule that you need to eliminate Scum + Neutrals to win? I know when it's a Survivor they win at End Game but that isn't with these role(s) here. But it's also been several months since I've done this so ( ._.);;;

 

[Ty4on]

Generally neutral with an objective loses if one faction wins before they do.
SK and derivatives win as the last player standing.

 

[Sawneeks]

Think i'm taking 'threat' to mean everything 'not town'. My bad, then. Ignore me.

 

[Ty4on]

Town numbers, parentheses is night, all mislynches.
10-(9)-8-(7)-7-(6)-5-(4)-3
Assuming dying dies before D4 and protection is used N2. Commuter escaping N4 will add another day, dying flips mylo back to lylo.

If mylo has mislynch and at night adrenaline junkie is killed then game should immediately end unless there’s a protection left.
4/2 - (3/2) - (3)/2 - (2/1) -1/1
So even a scum lynch can’t save them and the day phase is in vain.
Presumably a game with an outed commuter may need premature ending since scum know who to avoid, but that needs more thinking since scum could be doubting claim.

 

[Ty4on]

Addition points:
Example game shows universal protection moving game from lylo to mylo without an extra day.

However.

A lynch or NK killing neutral, or an extra protection of some kind would give town another day, upping mislynch count until lylo from 3 to 4.

 

[Ty4on]

Four mislynches total sounds low, but game isn’t that big either. Maybe a bit mafia favored tho~

Town pros:
-Motion detector can out scum blocker
-Package giver can help likely town
—Aforementioned role plus commuter gives town a plausible second protection
-Town is the biggest and most likely to get Kojima goodies
-A lot of roles to claim while mafia have no safe roles to claim, all are unique and somewhat believable

Mafia pros:
-Used effectively, the erased flips can wreck havoc for town analysis down the line.
-The sheer number of roles can make town think there are too many claims and start lynching them.
-Messenger may seem scummy because they cannot prove their role, tho this may backfire a few ways (either town figure out something is up with the role and town reads them for being honest or mafia pretends to have received the messages and mess up the execution)

 

[Ty4on]

This is kinda a different part, but I feel like Kojima should only have one killing role to throw out. The vengeful doesn’t have a huge chance of being used (tho Kojima may be incentivized to target a likely lynch), but it can still be disruptive and all but lock the game for scum. Together with vig it creates a worst case scenario where there are two extra kills which feels a bit much when it’s this small.

So tl;dr I don’t mind the extra potential killing, just feel like two can be a bit much.

 

[Sawneeks]

I believe Nat was aiming for this to be classified as Role Madness so the amount of claims wouldn't be too wild.

Kojima also kinda benefits Town in that it can remove Scum's Janitor and Roleblock before any damage can be done. The addition of the Role Thief also ups this chance depending on who gets it.

 

[Ty4on]

I believe Nat was aiming for this to be classified as Role Madness so the amount of claims wouldn't be too wild.

Kojima also kinda benefits Town in that it can remove Scum's Janitor and Roleblock before any damage can be done. The addition of the Role Thief also ups this chance depending on who gets it.

It’s currently not classified as such and as role madness there should be some plausible claims for scum so a mass claim doesn’t break the game. Eraser and ascetic basically can’t honestly claim and blocker is almost always scum.

There’s one vanilla town and one ascetic goon.

 

[Ty4on]

I didn’t follow it very closely, but the last game run seemed like it had a lot of obvious town roles that stopped lynches when claimed.

This isn’t quite that in some ways (only one strongly confirmed role, protector sorta turns into an innocent town after protecting if they claim), but a mass claim imo is still quite strong for town as it could create a lot of semi confirmed town and the narrowed lynch pool would hit most mafia.

 

[Ty4on]

Item giver is quite strong confirm too now that I think about it. Not as strong, but example:
Give to townread townie, they get good item and confirm you.

 

[Natiko]

I am aiming for role madness. I’ll think on some scum safe claims - probably will give them some of the stuff that ends up cut.

@Ty4on You keep referencing the ascetic goon even though I removed it. Are you saying it should be reverted back to that?

Now that we’re back to the lower player count I feel like I’m being pushed to add more roles back in. You’re giving me whiplash over here :P

 

[Ty4on]

I am aiming for role madness. I’ll think on some scum safe claims - probably will give them some of the stuff that ends up cut.

@Ty4on You keep referencing the ascetic goon even though I removed it. Are you saying it should be reverted back to that?

Now that we’re back to the lower player count I feel like I’m being pushed to add more roles back in. You’re giving me whiplash over here :P

I thought we back to old with hider swapped to detector :(

 

[Ty4on]

Death marker is maybe a bit much. I don’t think they need an extra kill with no doctor and with two NKs stopped the game is still balanced imo.

 

[Ty4on]

I was still thinking of there being a full doctor plus backup back then ._.

 

[Ty4on]

Kojima also kinda benefits Town in that it can remove Scum's Janitor and Roleblock before any damage can be done. The addition of the Role Thief also ups this chance depending on who gets it.

Role thief is effectively a role cop too hmm

Kojima most likely hits town and the chance of him removing either s!janitor or s!blocker N1 is the same as removing t!protector or t!giver N1. I’d argue the role removal is more impactful for town unless the janitor ends up super important for scum.

The scum blocker is also not that important, they can be lucky and get the protector and the item giver does something, but apart from that they don’t do a ton like they would in a game with an investigation role who’s more likely to claim. Not that I think there’s anything wrong with it, just that it’s not a hugely important role for them in this setup.

 

[Sawneeks]

Roleblock could help them depending on Kojima roles/Items. That would also stop the Hider so they can nail that person down and NK them.

Definitely not the strongest it's ever been but it's not useless.

@Natiko Is the doc up-to-date with how you want the game now or is it still kinda in flux? Might help the confusion that is happening lol

 

[Sawneeks]

Ty I'm not sure if this is what you were referencing above but both the Role Thief and the Back-up gain the roles as-is so if the role they take has zero shots they also get zero shots. There can't be two full protectors

 

[Ty4on]

Hasn’t the doc always been a protection for everybody? Think I just misread that at first thinking it was a targeted power with no N1 protection.

 

[Ty4on]

Ty I'm not sure if this is what you were referencing above but both the Role Thief and the Back-up gain the roles as-is so if the role they take has zero shots they also get zero shots. There can't be two full protectors

Oh no, I meant that the protector “can’t die” because the backup will most likely retrieve their role so it’s almost guaranteed to be available N2.

 

[Ty4on]

There can be a second protection (stopped kill) if scum target the commuter N2n or target someone with bulletproof.

 

[Sawneeks]

Oooh, gotcha.

Scum could also try and hit the Hider directly on N2.

 

[Ty4on]

Oooh, gotcha.

Scum could also try and hit the Hider directly on N2.

I thought there was no hider :(

 

[Ty4on]

Fake edit: So are we thinking the original design was more balanced? What if I toss the second neutral, and toss the hider and oddity detector from town? Puts us back at 10-3-1 and the self motion detector is weaker than the hider I would think? Maybe?

Not official, but i’ve been working off of this.

 

[Natiko]

Okay I updated the doc and hid some things. I gave scum a butt ton of fake claims (roles and names) to use. I removed the hider and the second neutral. I removed the vig shot role change and made it a gossip. I left the scum with the death marker because town is extremely likely to get two saves off at least between the revive role change and the protector, not to mention a potential BP gift and the commuter. Let me know your thoughts.

Edit: I also changed the neutral back to three alterations to win.

 

[Natiko]

I gave scum some potential synergy in their fake claims if they want (cop and miller; vig to match to the death marker)

 

[Ty4on]

Is two saves that bad for scum tho?
D1 10-(9)
D2 8-(7)
D3 7-(6)
D4 5-(4)
D5 4-?

Town still only have 5 mislynches

D1 10-(10)
D2 9-(9)
D3 9-(8)
D4 7-(6)
D5 6-(5)
D6 4-(3)
D7 2-?

Mislynches is a constant number, if we keep the protection counter equal (2) and add in two scum lynches early (red) we still have 5 mislynches for town, 4 if a protection fails.
In both examples there’s an N2 and N4 save.

 

[Natiko]

In an 11 town player game..? How many mislynches should they have?! C9++ Minis have 13 players with no setup having less than three threats to town - some even having four. I'm lost on how we're saying five mislynches is too few.

 

[Natiko]

Like absolute worst case scenario is probably scum doesn't kill the dying, gets a marked kill, neutral exits, and only one save happens:

D1 11-3-1
-1 Town
N1 10-3-1
-1 Town
D2 9-3-1
-1 Town
N2 8-3-1
Protect
D3 8-3-1
-1 Town
N3 7-3-1
-1 Town
-1 Neutral
D4 6-3
-2 Town (Dying)
N4 4-3
-2 Town
D5 Mafia win

A non-SK mini:
D1 10-3
-1 Town
N1 9-3
-1 Town
D2 8-3
-1 Town
N2 7-3
-1 Town
D3 6-3
-1 Town
N3 5-3
-1 Town
D4 4-3
-1 Town
N4 Mafia win

That assumes a town vig hasn't misfired - if they have then it ends after N3 (this is the worst case of the mini). Hell, you say no misfire vig AND a doc save, assume town is smart and no lynches in mylo, and you still only last half a phase longer than my design's worst case scenario for town that requires a bunch of shit to go against them (the odds of scum getting their marked kill off, missing the dying, only getting stopped once, the neutral exiting fast, etc.)

 

[Ty4on]

Like absolute worst case scenario is probably scum doesn't kill the dying, gets a marked kill, neutral exits, and only one save happens:

While not super likely, there is still a fairly decent chance the protection doesn’t happen. I use decent as a really relatively term lol, like 5% if I had to guess here.

1. Just dies D1 (1/14) or N1 (1/11)
2. Similar, but is forced to claim D1 then killed N1
3. Is roleblocked N2 then killed.
4. Player waits for claim to save and doesn’t deploy, is killed

We need a combination of some with the backup getting the “wrong” role or failing like above, but it could definitely happen in worst case.

 

[Ty4on]

C9++ with 5T and 7T is 2 scum plus SK, 6T is just 2 scum.

The games are quite different with all the extra killing roles shortening most games but it doesn’t seem totally different balance wise.
6T:
11-(10)
9-(8)
7-(6)
5-(4)
3-(2)

Five total mislynches with an arbitrary non killing town role. The SK can work both ways by killing mafia and being a mafia target themself so I ignored those setups.

 

[Natiko]

While not super likely, there is still a fairly decent chance the protection doesn’t happen. I use decent as a really relatively term lol, like 5% if I had to guess here.

1. Just dies D1 (1/14) or N1 (1/11)
2. Similar, but is forced to claim D1 then killed N1
3. Is roleblocked N2 then killed.
4. Player waits for claim to save and doesn’t deploy, is killed

We need a combination of some with the backup getting the “wrong” role or failing like above, but it could definitely happen in worst case.

Okay, sure. If by the mysteries of the universe:
A) Town lynches the backup D1
B) Scum kill the protector N1
C) Scum and town never kill the dying
D) Scum never target a receiver of the BP
E) Scum never target the commuter when they commute
F) The neutral either never gives the revive or the player receiving the revive dies the night they receive it
G) The neutral is never voted out or killed and leaves the game naturally
H) Town never votes out someone marked

then we can have a game that ends just as fast as a mini can in a non-worse case scenario, but still slower than the mini can end in the worst case scenario lol

 

[Natiko]

Actually if Vengeful is given out to town AND triggers on town AND all the above happens you can have a game that ends at the same time as the worst case scenario for a non-SK mini. I don't think I'm being crazy here for thinking this isn't horribly skewed against town. If anything the fact that all that shit has to happen just to get it close to the mini should tell us something.

 

[Ty4on]

A town kill is kinda an extra mislynch since they’re gonna target someone suspicious one way or another. In an optimally played game the vig targets someone town has agreed on (like the counter to a town lynch)

then we can have a game that ends just as fast as a mini can in a non-worse case scenario, but still slower than the mini can end in the worst case scenario lol

Is it slower tho? A mini without an SK or vig (which is the closes analog) will have five mislynches regardless. This setup needs a few things to go through and will err towards 4.

 

[Ty4on]

I’m thinking 10:3:1 still
11:3:1 naturally pushes it towards town by making it like 4.high mislynches if I have my math right.

 

[Natiko]

A town kill is kinda an extra mislynch since they’re gonna target someone suspicious one way or another. In an optimally played game the vig targets someone town has agreed on (like the counter to a town lynch)


Is it slower tho? A mini without an SK or vig (which is the closes analog) will have five mislynches regardless. This setup needs a few things to go through and will err towards 4.

Why exactly are you comparing this to the only C9++ outcome that only has two threats to town and requires there to be a whopping ONE town power role? lol

7T - 2 Scum and a SK
6T - 2 Scum
5T - 2 Scum and a SK
4T - 3 Scum
3T - 3 Scum and a SK
2T - 3 Scum
1T - 3 Scum and a SK
0T - 3 Scum

A majority of them have three scum, a huge majority of them have three threats, and very few of them will result in a town as strong as this town.

 

[Ty4on]

Why exactly are you comparing this to the only C9++ outcome that only has two threats to town and requires there to be a whopping ONE town power role? lol

7T - 2 Scum and a SK
6T - 2 Scum
5T - 2 Scum and a SK
4T - 3 Scum
3T - 3 Scum and a SK
2T - 3 Scum
1T - 3 Scum and a SK
0T - 3 Scum

A majority of them have three scum, a huge majority of them have three threats, and very few of them will result in a town as strong as this town.

To simplify it. We’re working with raw numbers and looking at the number of mislynches only. This game doesn’t have an SK so those setups are irrelevant. A lot of those setups feature a town vig which is very unlikely here too (and at most one shot) and something that really speeds up the game.

 

[Ty4on]

An SK is effectively worth nothing in balance as seen in those games where they’re more or less randomly spread out. That’s why I just ignore it and look at the SKless setups only.

This game only has 5 mislynches when two protections go through (one being the neutral is killed) and a second town kill never happens so the average is gonna be somewhere between 4 and 5.

 

[Natiko]

To simplify it. We’re working with raw numbers and looking at the number of mislynches only. This game doesn’t have an SK so those setups are irrelevant. A lot of those setups feature a town vig which is very unlikely here too (and at most one shot) and something that really speeds up the game.

A vig by no means has to be in any of those setups if it doesn't roll a V? That's why I didn't account for it in my main comparison. The mini still ends faster. I don't think picking the one setup that only has two threats and only has one town PR is the best set to compare to lol

 

[Natiko]

Even if you completely toss out the SK setups (which is fine, I didn't use them for my comparison) you're left with 4. 3 of those have 3 scum. Only 1 has 2 scum. Why would you compare to the minority when this game is not a PR light game as that would be?

 

[Ty4on]

Even if you completely toss out the SK setups (which is fine, I didn't use them for my comparison) you're left with 4. 3 of those have 3 scum. Only 1 has 2 scum. Why would you compare to the minority when this game is not a PR light game as that would be?

What’s the difference PR makes?
I already took into account actions by including likely outcomes (the protection) and apart from that the roles are generally not that powerful and Kojima’s stuff is technically not of any one alignment.
Package giver has a possible negative impact (tho I guess he could make mafia suicide :thinking: ) but is decently protown
Dying is anti
Commuter is decently protown
Adrenaline is light
Loved is also light (slight clearing)
Motion detector is also light being able to maybe clear people and out scum PRs

C9++ on the other hand generally has quite powerful roles so one role would account for like two in this game or smth

 

[Ty4on]

The only information town has is that one track and clearing from PR interactions

 

[Natiko]

What’s the difference PR makes?
I already took into account actions by including likely outcomes (the protection) and apart from that the roles are generally not that powerful and Kojima’s stuff is technically not of any one alignment.
Package giver has a possible negative impact (tho I guess he could make mafia suicide :thinking: ) but is decently protown
Dying is anti
Commuter is decently protown
Adrenaline is light
Loved is also light (slight clearing)
Motion detector is also light being able to maybe clear people and out scum PRs

C9++ on the other hand generally has quite powerful roles so one role would account for like two in this game or smth

PRs always matter in balance? Even if we ignore the amount of PRs if there are 4 setups left of C9++ and 75% of them have three mafia...and this game has three mafia...why would we not make that the comparison?

 

[Ty4on]

PRs always matter in balance? Even if we ignore the amount of PRs if there are 4 setups left of C9++ and 75% of them have three mafia...and this game has three mafia...why would we not make that the comparison?

The PRs aren’t hugely powerful with their biggest impact being a clearing factor.

I already took into account the most powerful role by including a save.
Then we have a possible track, possible bp west and someone self watching for info.

The C9++ roles include cop (self explanatory) full doc or more only (can clear their save too) vig (extra lynch effectively) blocker (can block mafia kill) mason (clear) so they all have a massive impact and have high potential for information.

 

[Ty4on]

The protector also sorta turns into a innocent child post protection as they can claim to have caused it if they need to.

On the contrary town is somewhat likely to have a couple of people flip without any role PM which is gonna make figuring out reads harder than a vanilla game.

 

[Natiko]

The PRs aren’t hugely powerful with their biggest impact being a clearing factor.

I already took into account the most powerful role by including a save.
Then we have a possible track, possible bp west and someone self watching for info.

The C9++ roles include cop (self explanatory) full doc or more only (can clear their save too) vig (extra lynch effectively) blocker (can block mafia kill) mason (clear) so they all have a massive impact and have high potential for information.

Okay, and in the 6T setup town might have a 1-shot cop. That's it. You think a 1-shot cop is equal in power to a protector, even night commuter, self motion detector, item giver, loved, and universal backup?

 

[Ty4on]

Okay, and in the 6T setup town might have a 1-shot cop. That's it. You think a 1-shot cop is equal in power to a protector, even night commuter, self motion detector, item giver, loved, and universal backup?

No. That game has exactly 5 mislynches versus one that has 4 point something so they’re not quite the same tho :D

 

[Natiko]

No. That game has exactly 5 mislynches versus one that has 4 point something so they’re not quite the same tho :D

Weren't you originally arguing five mislynches before losing isn't enough? You're losing me Ty D:

 

[Ty4on]

Weren't you originally arguing five mislynches before losing isn't enough? You're losing me Ty D:

I meant 5 as an upper bound was ok.

You need 3/4 here for it to happen:
protection (ladder)
second protection (commuter or bp)
dying lynched/killed before D4
neutral lynched/killed

so 2/3 considering the first one almost always happens

That’s why I repeatedly said mislynch count was 4 point something.

 

[Ty4on]

Is two saves that bad for scum tho?
D1 10-(9)
D2 8-(7)
D3 7-(6)
D4 5-(4)
D5 4-?

Town still only have 5 mislynches

D1 10-(10)
D2 9-(9)
D3 9-(8)
D4 7-(6)
D5 6-(5)
D6 4-(3)
D7 2-?

Mislynches is a constant number, if we keep the protection counter equal (2) and add in two scum lynches early (red) we still have 5 mislynches for town, 4 if a protection fails.
In both examples there’s an N2 and N4 save.

Adding to this:
5 total mislynches is the upper bound for mafia unlucky, but the game is still very much doable for mafia. Most games are gonna have 4 I think.

 

[Natiko]

Ohhhhh, that makes way more sense. I was honestly so confused as to how you thought there should be more than five lol That's my bad for misunderstanding. So I guess I have the following questions left:

1. Are there any gifts that we feel are just too much and need to be changed?
2. Are there any Creator roles that we feel are just too much and need to be changed?
3. What do we think about my provided safe claims for scum?
4. Does anyone feel strongly that the player count needs to be adjusted or any of the current roles need to be cut or swapped with previously removed ones?