THE HAUNTING OF GAFIA

[Pedro]

yn

May 29 2017 at 8:49am

sheet is here: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12S_Fy_ePhB-z_O3P9tw__6tND89KdKH0ux0dg_4da_o/edit

note: doppel indicates that her calendar may be hectic soon so she is estimating this to run july/august but that we should double-check with her once the game design is vetted and closer to launch date.

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

May 29 2017 at 7:12pm

Ruh-roh

 

[Pedro]

Roytheone

May 30 2017 at 2:05pm

Needs more rito children and pineapple pizza

2/10

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

May 30 2017 at 4:52pm

Wait, Roy is reviewing my game?

gross

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

May 30 2017 at 4:59pm

Also since I, uh, don't actually know who my reviewers are feel free to make yourself known so I know who to bribe. And more importantly so I know who to hang out with and just dump tons and tons of words on while I go over my thoughts on the design.

speaking of which, I'll do that. Eventually. When I'm not drowning in Finals.

but just as a heads up everything with a '?' at the end of it is a Role I'm debating so Town isn't actually going to have a Hider/Commuter/Tracker/Watcher, they will likely just have 1 or 2 of those by the end of it.

 

[Pedro]

Roytheone

May 31 2017 at 7:20am

May 30 2017 at 4:59pm Sawneeks said:
Also since I, uh, don't actually know who my reviewers are feel free to make yourself known so I know who to bribe. And more importantly so I know who to hang out with and just dump tons and tons of words on while I go over my thoughts on the design.

speaking of which, I'll do that. Eventually. When I'm not drowning in Finals.

but just as a heads up everything with a '?' at the end of it is a Role I'm debating so Town isn't actually going to have a Hider/Commuter/Tracker/Watcher, they will likely just have 1 or 2 of those by the end of it.

It's me and topo so your game is 100 % doomed.

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

May 31 2017 at 1:21pm

May 31 2017 at 7:20am Roytheone said:
It's me and topo so your game is 100 % doomed.

You and Topo are working together?? My game really is doomed.

 

[Pedro]

Roytheone

May 31 2017 at 5:36pm via mobile

May 31 2017 at 1:21pm Sawneeks said:

May 31 2017 at 7:20am Roytheone said:
It's me and topo so your game is 100 % doomed.

You and Topo are working together?? My game really is doomed.

Nah, just ignore all topos remarks and follow mine and you will be fine!

(I will give actual feedback over the weekend, I swear!

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

May 31 2017 at 8:40pm

No rush, Roy. I'm actually hoping to get back to this around the weekend and nail down some of the other Roles.

If either of you have any suggestions or ideas for unconventional Town information roles I'm open for suggestions! I don't want to give Town just the plain old Investigation Roles ( Cop, Tracker, etc. etc. ) but one that just unintentionally gives information. In my head a Jailer fits this role since they can either be played Offensively or Defensively and it's possible to gain the identity of a Killer if they block them. Stuff like that.

Scum's disruption abilities will just be to counter whatever Town has, though I really want a Day Kill. They seem fun. >.>

 

[Pedro]

eltopodelgaf

Jun 4 2017 at 8:00am

All I'll say is that the game better have Big Bob Oakley.
(Sorry I've only come here now. I'll read your posts and try to help you.)

 

[Pedro]

Roytheone

Jun 4 2017 at 8:19am

Remarks! The finest of remarks! Way better then dumb topo remarks!

-Shaggy and scooby are mansons, and not lovers, right? Keep in mind that this will give a high chance of one of them becoming a confirmed towny when the other flips. (not a problem per se, just keep it in mind when balancing the roles).

- I would go with a tracker for Fred and not a watcher, since I personally find watchers quite hard to balance against since they are so incredibly powerful (more powerful than a cop). Probably also make them limited shot.

- commuter+hider+jailed person are quite a few people that scum can't hit during the night and they don't have any powers to truly counter this.

- Scum switcher is a big nono. It makes town powers almost useless. If they want to kill A for example, they just switch A with B and target B with the kill. Since B can be literally anybody randomly chosen, this makes it VERY hard for town pr to target the correct player to get a result.

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

Jun 4 2017 at 3:52pm

Jun 4 2017 at 8:00am eltopodelgaf said:
All I'll say is that the game better have Big Bob Oakley.
(Sorry I've only come here now. I'll read your posts and try to help you.)

He's in there now!
(don't worry about it. \o/ )

Jun 4 2017 at 8:19am Roytheone said:
Remarks! The finest of remarks! Way better then dumb topo remarks!

-Shaggy and scooby are mansons, and not lovers, right? Keep in mind that this will give a high chance of one of them becoming a confirmed towny when the other flips. (not a problem per se, just keep it in mind when balancing the roles).

- I would go with a tracker for Fred and not a watcher, since I personally find watchers quite hard to balance against since they are so incredibly powerful (more powerful than a cop). Probably also make them limited shot.

- commuter+hider+jailed person are quite a few people that scum can't hit during the night and they don't have any powers to truly counter this.

- Scum switcher is a big nono. It makes town powers almost useless. If they want to kill A for example, they just switch A with B and target B with the kill. Since B can be literally anybody randomly chosen, this makes it VERY hard for town pr to target the correct player to get a result.

-Thinking about it. I want to make them Lovers since I'm fairly certain I'm keeping the Lynchproof role in but I don't want them to be official Lovers until Shaggy finds Scooby and they enter a chat together. Just worried that whoever gets Shaggy won't be playing towards finding Scooby since becoming Lovers does get you a chat but it makes you way more dangerous to Town since both will die instead of just one.

-Done, though not limiting it for now.

-Took out the Commuter ( still thinking maybe a Sleepwalker?? ) and I gave Scum a 2-shot Strong/1-shot Ninja to compensate for the Jailer/Hider/Tracker.

-NoFunAllowed. :(
I do see what you mean there but that's entirely the reason I want it in. Scum's job this game is going to be disrupting Town's Roles and the Switcher will fit that perfectly. I'm iffy on giving Scum so many x-shot Roles but what do you think of making the Switcher a 2 or 3 shot instead of just infinite?

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

Jun 4 2017 at 4:00pm

Hmmm, what do you guys think of a Weak Hider?

Town would already have a Jailer ( protective ), Lynchproof ( also protective ), and Lovers ( somewhat anti-utility ). Played correctly a Weak Hider would fill the role of a Weak Cop if the breadcrumbs were left that would point to who they hid behind that Night.

I would just be hesitant to have BOTH a Lovers pair and a Weak Hider in one game since that's easily a lot of Town deaths they can't necessarily predict.

 

[Pedro]

Roytheone

Jun 5 2017 at 6:34am

-Yeah, making the masons lovers instead would be problematic. If you make it so that they only become lovers if they found each other, the correct play would be to never search for your partner and just play as a vanilla towny. Not very interesting. If you make it so that they are lovers from the start, one player could die because their lover partner that they don't even know who they are died. I can see that being VERY frustrating for that player. Maybe it would be best to keep them just masons and balance against the fact that they can create a confirmed towny.

-A way you can maybe balance the switcher without making it X-shot: make it so that scum can't target the 2 switched targets with their kill. That way scum can still use the switcher to fuck with town a bit, but can't use it as a super power that pretty much always will make their kill work out.

-I like the idea of a weak hider. It's a very technical role that can be used in multiple ways.

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

Jun 5 2017 at 1:44pm

-The way I see the Role working is one of two ways:

As Masons both Players are informed they are Masons from the start of the game. Shaggy is informed he has an Investigate ability and is looking for his Ol' Pal Scooby and, if/when he does find Scooby, losses his Cop Power and will join a Mason chat. Scooby on the other hand is informed of the identity of Shaggy from the start of the game and is told that he can join a Mason chat but does not have access to anything else.

As Lovers it's roughly the same deal except Shaggy's investigate would be Compulsory and can't target the same person twice ( so they can't just NOT investigate someone ) and the Lover's anti-utility ability of both Players dying would ONLY activate once they hit the chat. If Shaggy dies before Scooby does and they aren't in the chat yet then only one dies as opposed to both dying. This will be communicated to both Players in their Role PMs and it would then be left to Shaggy to decide if they play towards a confirmed Partner or try to purposefully not hit Scooby to benefit Town.

-Hmmm, maybe. Maybe wording it 'Switching does not affect Kills' would get past that but it just seems like a weird arbitrary restriction. Town does still have a Tracker to follow the Killer despite the kill being switched.

 

[Pedro]

eltopodelgaf

Jun 17 2017 at 7:12am

1. I think the problem is that a mafia switcher, as roy pointed out correctly, is a very powerful role that can cause mayhem. Mind you, I like the role itself and it fits the flavor (as characters would often be switched in the show, e.g. amidst chaos), but it's something we have to keep in mind. Given that there are only a handful of power roles, I wouldn't necessarily consider it an emergency though.

2. I think the jailer should maybe not be able to target the same player twice in a row, similar to a standard clause for doctors. Mind you, I don't think it's too important either.

3. I like the weak hider. It's a nice role that requires the player to contemplate the risk and reward of their action. Not only that, but the existence of a mafia switcher allows for amusing shenanigans.

4. How does the day vigilante work? Can he instantly kill someone during the day, i.e. if a tracker is about to reveal their list they can stop him, or is it at the end of the day? The former seems fun, but potentially frustrating.

That said, I think the set-up is fine all in all. Not too many power roles.

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

Jul 17 2017 at 8:13pm

Roytheone
eltopodelgaf

Just dusted off ye old spreadsheet and updated it a bit. I like where it's sitting now but I need your guy's green light before I can unleash this to the masses.

SO FAR the only thing I'm really on the fence about is the Switcher being unlimited ( you guys have scared me ). I could always just make it x-shot but I feel like having all of Scum's PRs be x-shot seems really unfair to them when they hit the end game and I want to avoid that if possible. Problem is I feel like the Switcher fits everything so I don't want to get rid of it either....

I'm also going with Lovers > Masons for Scooby/Shaggy. I'll just add it clearly to their Role PM that they only die together once they are in the Lovers Chat, not before. Also the Cop is compulsory so they can't really sit by and not look for their Lost Partner.

And what are you guys ruling/thoughts on giving Scum a PR that does absolutely nothing? I kinda want to give them a Godfather who, when investigated, shows up as 'Town' but since there is no Cop in the game that has that ability it's just kinda...worthless in a sense. I mean, I'm not technically lying to the Scum Team since I'm not directly saying 'hey there is a Cop in the game' by giving them a Godfather but I do want to see how they would react. Yes? No? 'Saw that's mean don't do that'?

 

[Pedro]

eltopodelgaf

Aug 22 2017 at 4:48pm

I like your reasoning and I don't think these are big issues. Yes, it might be a bit mean to lead scum astray, but on the other hand....hey, at least someone gets to feel important.

 

[Pedro]

Roytheone

Sep 9 2017 at 8:43am

Oh yeah, this thing still exists

- Thinking about it, making them lovers is fine. It forces shaggy to pick how to use his power (find scooby or avoid on purpose) which i am always a fan off.

- I have 0 issues with the godfather thing. Hell, I did something similar in batman where one of the role pm's specifically told a scum that their power wouldn't work against a certain role but that role was not in the game at all

You should ALWAYS be very careful with drawing conclusions in mafia and if they do it that's their fault.

-I am still kinda afraid about the scum switcher. I think an unlimited scum switcher is one of, if not THE, most powerful power a scum can have. This actually ties into my gut feeling about balance which is that scum feels a bit more powerful than town. Scum has the juggernout that is the switcher, a ninja/strongman and a free day kill. Town has the jailer, tracker and lynchproof, but with the lovers and weak hider also has 2 powers that are negative utility. Looking at it, maybe give the tracker also a 1 or 2 shot watcher ability? That would power up town a bit plus watchers are pretty much a direct counter against switchers (even if scum switch kills everybody, if the watcher is on the kill target they would still spot the switcher). That would balance it a bit better i think.

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

Oct 17 2017 at 6:54pm

Aug 22 2017 at 4:48pm eltopodelgaf said:
.

Sep 9 2017 at 8:43am Roytheone said:
.

So, thinking on the Switcher still, what if I made a role that effectively swaps players actions on the surface but doesn't actually change anything underneath?

I'm kinda basing it on the Mirror role from Mafiascum but with a good amount of key differences.

Basically, a Scum Mirror can target two Players ( for this let's say Scum!Roy and Town!Topo ) and their Night Actions are switched to any investigative roles looking at either player but the underlying actions haven't been touched. So, if Scum!Roy was Killing Melon and Town!Topo was protecting Sorian, any Tracker who targeted either player would see the opposite. A Tracker targeting Roy would see him go to Sorian and if the Tracker targeted Topo they would see him going to Melon instead. The actual commands/abilities haven't been moved: Melon still dies and Sorian is still protected, but to anyone looking it looks like the opposite took place. Would likely make it so it can't be used on the same person consecutively.

Hammering out the description/explanation for it would take some work and I'd remove Scum's Ninja and maybe give Town some sort of Watcher, but what do you both think. Too complicated?

 

[Pedro]

eltopodelgaf

Oct 18 2017 at 6:17pm

I'm...not sure if that's all that great. It seems a bit limited. Maybe you can sell the idea on me a bit more?

 

[Pedro]

Sawneeks

Oct 27 2017 at 8:40pm

Oct 18 2017 at 6:17pm eltopodelgaf said:
I'm...not sure if that's all that great. It seems a bit limited. Maybe you can sell the idea on me a bit more?

...I think I'm still trying to sell it to myself. >.>

In the end I'm just not sure what to put there. Would an unlimited Switcher work if it was 'you can't target the same player consecutively'?

 

[Pedro]

This design board has been moved from Outer Gafia to Outer Mafia so the reviewing can continue.

Designer: @Sawneeks
Reviewers: @El Topo, @Roytheone

 

[Sawneeks]

IT LIIIIIIIVES

i'm gonna work on this later

 

[Sawneeks]

So, everything is still roughly the same but i changed:

- Town Tracker is now a 2-shot. Reason being between the Jailer and Weak Hider, Town already has a good amount of ways to catch Scum if they play it smart. An Unlimited Tracker might kick Town a tiny bit too strong.
- 1-shot Strong/1-shot Ninja JOAT for Scum instead of the 1/2 split I had earlier. Mostly because of the Tracker change.
- And now, the Switcher. Still stubborn on keeping it so my question is: would making the Switcher an Odd Night Only Switcher mitigate this problem? Or would you still ultimately prefer a x-shot on it.

 

[El Topo]

I'm kind of thinking it's fine more or less. My issues remain, but I think with a 4:1 split the game is in good shape.

 

[El Topo]

So yeah, despite possible issues with a mafia switcher, I will say that this game has my okay, unless you drastically change things.

 

[Roytheone]

I'm back with fresh things to complain about! Jay!

- Odd/even night would weaken the switcher enough that I would be ok with it.

- Is the weak hider forced to go out there each night? With them dying when hiding behind scum or someone that dies during the night, and with the chance of a lovers double kill I could see the night becoming a minefield for them.

- Also, burb always told me to see how a worst case scenario would play out so:

day 1: 16 V 4
They lynch town, lover find eachother but get shot by mafia, weak hider dies behind lovers, scum immediatly day kills someone.
day 2: 11 V 4
Lynch town, scum kills town
day 3: 9 V 4
day 4: 7 V 4
day 5: 5 V 4
day 6: scum wins

So in a worst case scenario for town, scum wins at the end of day 5. That's totally fine. If you make the switcher odd/even night I will also give this game my okay.

Some random, non balance, jailer/lover related thoughts:

* If the jailer jails one of the activated lovers, do they lose chat acces for that night? I would say yes
* If the jailer jails one of the activated lovers, and the other lover gets shot during the night, does the jailed lover still die? I think they would, but i am not sure.

 

[Sawneeks]

Even Night Switcher it is!

* If the jailer jails one of the activated lovers, do they lose chat acces for that night? I would say yes
* If the jailer jails one of the activated lovers, and the other lover gets shot during the night, does the jailed lover still die? I think they would, but i am not sure.

1. I would actually say no. In my mind it functions like a Mason chat and I don't believe Masons lose access when Jailed/Roleblocked.
2. Pretty sure they would still die. Both Lovers die whenever the other does, even if they were protected.

Question though, in the event Scum does do the whole Switch A -> B and kill B if a Tracker tracks the Killer do they see them go to B?

 

[Sawneeks]

Also if a Tracker watches the Switcher do they see them go to both people?

 

[Roytheone]

Even Night Switcher it is!



1. I would actually say no. In my mind it functions like a Mason chat and I don't believe Masons lose access when Jailed/Roleblocked.
2. Pretty sure they would still die. Both Lovers die whenever the other does, even if they were protected.

Question though, in the event Scum does do the whole Switch A -> B and kill B if a Tracker tracks the Killer do they see them go to B?

A tracker sees the players his targeted visited, which is not necessarily the same as the one they targeted. So yes, a tracker would track the killer to B. Likewise, the tracker would see the switcher visit 2 players.

 

[Sawneeks]

@El Topo @Roytheone

So it's been a while since I've done this. I'm making the Priority List and currently it looks like:

Priority List
1. Hider
2. Switcher
3. Jailer
4. Kill
5. Scooby Cop
6. Tracker

Does Switcher take priority over everything? Or does Hider beat it?

 

[Roytheone]

@El Topo @Roytheone

So it's been a while since I've done this. I'm making the Priority List and currently it looks like:

Priority List
1. Hider
2. Switcher
3. Jailer
4. Kill
5. Scooby Cop
6. Tracker

Does Switcher take priority over everything? Or does Hider beat it?

Ugh, priorities, always fun (no its not).

A switcher can't switch a hider around (hider goes first), but they CAN influence where the hider ends up. (so priority would be: hider leaves his spot - switch - hider arrives at his target).

Also, I would say the jailer goes before the switcher, since the jailer can block the switcher from switching people. (if that is not the case, you can have the situation where the switcher switches themselves with B, the jailer targets B but it gets redirected to the switcher, but the switch of the switcher is now roleblocked so it doesn't happen and the universe implodes).

Also also, kill always goes last.

 

[Sawneeks]

Updated List after Roy told me the universe might implode

Priority List
1. Hider (Leaving)
2. Jailer
3. Switcher
4. Hider (Arriving)
5. Scooby Cop
6. Kill
7. Tracker

Also made some notes:

* Hider is completely untargetable directly
* If the Cop finds Scooby the same Night one of them is targeting for a Kill both Players will die from the Lovers ability.
* Tracker moves after Kill but still gets results if killed that Night
* If Switcher targets Hider, Switch fails

 

[Sawneeks]

@El Topo @Roytheone

Here are the Role PMs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NjG_aaKQbc6d3dAuvlFxNp2r43G2gTkRRWtit2sN1oU/edit?usp=sharing

I changed the Town Tracker back to unlimited. Town seems a bit under-powered as I was writing it all out.

 

[Sawneeks]

Also a question on a potential outcome:

If the Hider targets a Player who is Jailed, what happens to the Hider? Currently Jailer is written as 'it stops all actions/kills that would target that player'. Would the Hide just fail and they become targetable that Night? Wouldn't that mess up Tracker results?

 

[Roytheone]

Also a question on a potential outcome:

If the Hider targets a Player who is Jailed, what happens to the Hider? Currently Jailer is written as 'it stops all actions/kills that would target that player'. Would the Hide just fail and they become targetable that Night? Wouldn't that mess up Tracker results?

Yep, the hider would become targetable that night, and if the tracker is on them they would see them visiting the jailed player in their attempt to hide behind them.

 

[Roytheone]

Looked at the role pm's, some remarks:

- the win condition sentence on vanilla towny is slightly different then the other town roles.
- Don't forget to highlight/make red the target commands in the pm's
- The jailor should specify that it prevents any powers from being used on their target. Protection means it only prevents kills.
- It should specify in the power part of the pm of the strongman/ninja that both their commands are one shot.
- I would replace "cop" in the godfather role pm with "powers that reveal alignments".
- Probably specify for the day vig that they need to send the pm to you and it is not a command for in the thread itself.
- Can the switcher use their power and do the night kill on the same night? If not, that restriction should be added.

 

[Sawneeks]

Looked at the role pm's, some remarks:

- the win condition sentence on vanilla towny is slightly different then the other town roles.
- Don't forget to highlight/make red the target commands in the pm's
- The jailor should specify that it prevents any powers from being used on their target. Protection means it only prevents kills.
- It should specify in the power part of the pm of the strongman/ninja that both their commands are one shot.
- I would replace "cop" in the godfather role pm with "powers that reveal alignments".
- Probably specify for the day vig that they need to send the pm to you and it is not a command for in the thread itself.
- Can the switcher use their power and do the night kill on the same night? If not, that restriction should be added.

1. Fixed
2. I won't
3. That's intentional. They can't be killed but will be targetable by others.
4. Fixed.
5. Fixed
6. Fixed
7. Fixed and added in if they are the last alive they may use both.

 

[Pedro]

Hi hi, just giving this a final look since Topo isn't here.

That Godfather is a bastard role in this design, while the game will be advertised as "Normal". Whoever gets that role won't have signed up to that.

 

[Pedro]

Can you give me access to PMs document to suggest changes?

 

[Roytheone]

Hi hi, just giving this a final look since Topo isn't here.

That Godfather is a bastard role in this design, while the game will be advertised as "Normal". Whoever gets that role won't have signed up to that.

I seriously doubt this will be an issue. If we call this bastard we wouldn't have normal games left.

 

[Pedro]

I seriously doubt this will be an issue. If we call this bastard we wouldn't have normal games left.

I didn't want to call it bastard, but I wanted to make sure neeks knows complaints about this could happen. We talked about it already and she knows that now ^^


Done, it all looks good to me c:

As of now, this game is greenlit and ready to launch. Thanks, everyone!

 

[Pedro]

This design has been given to the Adopt-a-design program. Here is some information about it, for its new owner:

Originally created by Sawneeks, and reviewed by El Topo, Roytheone, and Pedro.
The review started on May 29th, 2017, and finished on March 11th, 2018 with its approval.

Before being put up for adoption, the Godfather role was replaced by a Mafia Goon, to eliminate any bastard elements in the design.

Here is the design sheet you should use, with the role PMs and a space for you to track the night actions in your game: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IJu951_H5sa0ThNCVTo4ri0l4mFjpc7H5p_55GC8um0/edit?usp=sharing