Life is Strange Mafia!

[Fanto]

HIIII!!!!! I am so excited!!!

LiS Mafia is a 15 person Role Madness game.

Here is my spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jm07dhVaHY9968I7RqmYHy17q_i2pLXkIVrsmFqL5bM/edit?usp=sharing

Here is my role priority for the night actions:

Spoiler: Role Priority

Rolestopper
Hider
Doctor
Drug Dealer
Motivator
Night Kills (Mafia/SK)
Amnesiac Cop
Coroner
Watcher

Here is a work-in-progress sample Role PM:

Spoiler: Sample Role PM

Welcome to Life is Strange Mafia, shaka brah!

You are Bongo (aka Super Kitty). You were once Chloe Price's cat, until you tragically died when you were hit by a car. You will always be loved and remembered forever. RIP Bongo (1999-2008)

You are Vanilla, which means you have no powers other than voting during the day. Sad face!

You are aligned with Arcadia Bay, which means you are hella Town.

You will win when all threats to Arcadia Bay have been eliminated.

That's about all I have for now. PLEASE BE NICE!!!

 

[Geno]

Let me start by saying that I have not played LiS so I don't know if these roles are flavor based or not.
I took a brief look at the sheet and will take another one likely tomorrow and write some thoughts on it.

 

[Fanto]

A couple of the roles are flavor based yeah, mainly the Serial Killer since that's a main plot element of the game. Rewind and Drug Dealer are flavor based as well.

 

[Fanto]

To be clear though, only the Serial Killer's flavor will be locked in. I'd like to come up with some flavorful stuff to explain the roles/alignments of the other characters being random since LiS is a time travel game with timeline fuckery so that would be fun haha.

 

[Faddy]

Hi Fantomas!

I also have never played Life is Strange so be prepared for some flavour-ish questions.

 

[Faddy]

First thing that strikes me is your role priority. It isn't 100% necessary to stick to this but this is what our guidelines say. https://www.outermafia.com/index.php?threads/164/

General role priority

1. Copy
2. Hide
3. Bus
4. Block
5. Redirect
6. Protect
7. Miscellaneous
8. Kill
9. Recruit
10. Inspect

Your order is

1. Rolestopper (block)
   
2. Hider (hide)
   
3. Doctor (protect)
   
4. Drug Dealer (misc)
   
5. Motivator (misc)
   
6. Night Kills (Mafia/SK) (Kill)
   
7. Amnesiac Cop (inspect)
   
8. Coroner (inspect)
   
9. Watcher (inspect)

Is there any reason that you can't have Hider acting first to stay within the current guidelines?

 

[Fanto]

Hi Faddy!

Yeah, for the role priority I just looked up a guideline online, I didn't know we had one here actually. The hider should definitely go before the Rolestopper then yeah. I had been thinking it was a form of protection like a bulletproof so I was putting it with the Doctor before.

 

[Faddy]

I don't have any major issues with the game so that is good.

A few questions though.
1. Is the information the Coroner finds out random or would they 100% find out the role of a janitored kill?
2. Do the mafia team get the role from the janitored kill?
3. Are the amnesiac cop results randomised evenly between all players?
4. Do the mafia team get fake roles?
5. Can mafia use 2 janitor shots or does it need to be one of each?
6. Are roleblocked shots refunded?
7. If the cop gets killed in the night their check does not get sent right?

Is town overpowered? A 2 shot cop and 2 shot watcher AND a doctor seems pretty OP. Those roles can stack in very powerful ways.

 

[Faddy]

What are the win conditions?

If we end up with a final 3 of 1 mafia, 1 town, and the SK who gets the win?
If it is a final 2 of mafia and SK who gets the win?

 

[Fanto]

Great questions, some stuff I hadn't considered yet, I'll try to give some detailed answers here.

1. They would find out the role of a Janitored kill, yes. I would think that if they used it on someone who was not Janitor killed, then they would receive just the faction of the killer as their info. If they did use it on a Janitor killed player, they would receive the Role PM. They could possibly receive both the Role PM and the faction of the killer on a Janitor killed person too, but if that seems OP then it could just be the role.

2. The Mafia does not receive the role from the Janitor killed player.

3. Yes. I had been considering the idea of keeping it so that Mafia would not receive the results no matter what, but I think I would rather keep it fully randomized.

4. This is something I had forgot about. Yes, I would probably want the Mafia team to get fake roles to claim since it is a Role Madness game and I'm pretty sure the others I've seen so far also had fake claims for the Mafia. We had fake claims in Conspiracy, and from what I remember they were like passive roles or hard to prove/disprove ones, I definitely remember that Medium was one haha. So yeah, I would need to probably figure out some role claims for them to have which I can add to the spreadsheet.

5. This is something I hadn't considered. I think I would rather keep it to one shot of each for the JoaT, so once they use the Janitor shot, they can't use another one, they would only have the one Ninja shot remaining.

6. Something else I hadn't fully considered. I know in Conspiracy I was refunded my 1 shot when I was blocked, and that made sense because it would otherwise have taken away my whole role from me without anything I could have personally done about it. I would say yes, but on the other hand I have pretty much everyone sitting at 2 shots right now for their abilities, so maybe only the 1-shots would get them refunded? I'll think on this some more.

7. The Cop's check would not be sent if they were killed at night.

8. Town could be a bit OP currently, yeah. I had actually been considering making the Cop a 1-shot instead, but keeping the Doc and Watcher at 2. I had the Doctor at 2 shots since there will be the 2 night kills going while the SK is around. There is also the Hider though, and the SK needs to dodge the Godfather's NK immunity as well. I think I would still leave the Watcher at 2-shot, but I could see maybe bringing down the Doc and Cop to 1-shots just to bring down the Town's power a bit there, yeah.

9. 1 Town, 1 Mafia, 1 SK ending. Huh, I'm just going to think out loud here for a bit on this one:

I suppose it's either the Mafia or the SK that gets the win there? Town gets shot by Mafia (natural enemies, after all) and then the SK shoots the Mafia and wins? But what if it was the Godfather? He's immune to the kills, does he override the SK and win instead due to that? I guess I could also let the SK win as a Neutral Survivor, that would just mean that situation would be LyLo instead, right? So if Mafia gets lynched, SK wins with Town, if Town gets lynched, SK wins with Mafia, if SK gets lynched, Mafia wins? Is that how that would work then? That might be best just to make it easy, but then I feel like the SK could just never kill and go about trying to get that Win Con instead, right? So maybe that isn't the best idea. Unless I make it so they have to submit a kill each night, that's a possibility I suppose to avoid that situation, right?

Ok, so yeah, that last one is something that hurts my mind a bit to think about lol. Let me know if any of that rambling above has any sense in it. Is there like a normal way for that to play out or is it just kind of a Gamerunner's discretion thing?

 

[Faddy]

A final 3 with 1 person from each faction is strange but there are winning outs for everyone.

Obviously for the SK and Mafia they can get the other lynched and kill the remaining town in the night. The town player can win by no lynching and having the other players cross shoot so they are the only living player. So playing optimally the town player should automatically vote for No Lynch since they can't win a 1v1. But most people just call this a tie.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Dilemma

Usually in a 1v1 situation the SK is given the win. You can write their win condition as "you win when all other players are dead"

How does the SK show up on cop checks? Do they show as Serial Killer? Or are your checks going to say Town or Not Town? Or Mafia and Not Mafia?

 

[Fanto]

Yeah, that's probably the best way to do the SK win-con then. I think that eliminates a lot of the confusion I was having about how that was going to work.

Right now I have it in the spreadsheet that the Cop receives a "Town/Not Town" result. So the SK would show up the same way as a Mafia member, Not Town.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, I updated the spreadsheet to reflect some of the things we've talked about so far.

I added some notes just to make some of the mechanics a bit more clear for some of those abilities we discussed like the Janitor/Coroner relationship, and added the "You win when all other players are dead" condition for the SK. I also moved the Cop down to a 1-shot, I think that makes more sense actually and probably makes Town a little less powerful than they were.

About the refunding of shots when blocked, would it make sense to just do that for the 1-shot abilities? Because that's kind of how I'm leaning on how to handle that right now.

 

[Faddy]

If you are refunding shots you should do it for all roles. Most games do refund shots if people are roleblocked.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, I'll add that in as a note too.

 

[Geno]

I think that town is still a bit op, and SK is underpowered, SK has almost no chances in this scenario, I think it would help if you gave him a 1 shot BP. I also think that the Watcher should have 1 shot.

 

[Fanto]

Yeah, that sounds good. Updated the spreadsheet again.

 

[dragon mom]

Agreed with all the criticisms. I've been meaning to take a look through the updates so I will do that soon.

I have played the game many times so I can help him edit flavor and stuff. We will need to give the SK a fake claim because that name is like, very obvious to anyone who played the game.

 

[Faddy]

I'm fine with the SK getting a BP.

So you need a few fake claims for mafia to make.

For mafia
I would suggest you tell them they are the only roleblocker in the game
A 1 shot vigilante. This should alert them to an SK in the game if the roleblock description didn't already
A flavour based passive role.

I would tell the SK they can safely claim miller

 

[Fanto]

Yeah, I like those suggestions. And yeah, I figured the style of roleblock they have would probably hint at the existence of an SK, but telling them Vig is a safe claim too would add to that.

For the flavor based passive one, I'll think on that for a bit, and also see if @dragon mom has any ideas.

 

[Fanto]

Do you think a Restless Spirit would be ok as the other fake claim for Mafia? It would fit with the flavor (spirit animals are a thing). It's not really something that could be proven without their death, but it's something that can be thrown out there in case of a mass claim situation, and I don't think it's any less likely than some of the other Town roles in the game.

 

[Geno]

I don't usually like giving fake claims like those, but that's just me.

 

[Faddy]

@Fantomas

you finally died huh.

Time to finish up your game so you can be the one tormenting people!

 

[Fanto]

Hahaa, yeah this is another reason I kind of wanted to die days and days ago lol.

---------------------------------------------

I'll try to sit down and get some more thoughts about this game down soon now that my Mafia energy isn't being spent elsewhere haha.

I'll try to think of another fake claim for the Mafia that works in there.

I want to nail down exactly how I want the flavor to work and stuff. I'm thinking flavor should probably just be fully tied in, so fake flavor claims would be needed for the Mafia too.

Then yeah, I suppose I would need to start figuring out exactly how to word some of those roles and stuff because there are some odd ones in here.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, so other than something simple like a bulletproof, I honestly can't really think of any other passive roles that would be ok as a fake claim here. I can keep trying to think on that but otherwise I should probably move on to other stuff.

For flavor, I'll probably talk to @dragon mom some more about that since she'll definitely want to be in on that stuff.

So, I guess unless there were any other major balance concerns or whatever, I don't know what else I should be doing next other than that stuff? I suppose Role PMs would need to be done for all of these roles to get all the wording for the commands and everything down. And I'll probably change the names of some of them just to make them sound cooler or maybe make them a bit more flavorful like the "Rewind" and "Drug Dealer" ones.

 

[Faddy]

I think what you should do is start writing the Role PMs as you would send them out.

That will help in 2 massive ways.
1. It will make you commit to making a firm decision about roles etc and give you more idea of what tweaks you want to make
2. It will let me, Geno and Bae see a "finished" version and make concrete suggestions on game balance

When writing the role PMs you should try and keep your language style and wording the same in all of them, use consistent terms etc.

 

[Fanto]

Nice. Yeah, I'll just get started on that stuff tonight then.

Probably within the next couple days here I'll just post another spreadsheet or a word doc with all of them.

 

[Fanto]

Ok here's a link to a spreadsheet with all the role PMs.

I didn't really make any changes to the role mechanics, I just gave a few of the roles new names that are a little more in line with the flavor.

One thing I was kind of going back and forth on was how much the Coroner should be told in their PM about what kind of information they can receive from inspecting a dead player. Right now I'm just leaving it vague, but let me know if you think it should maybe be more specific than that.

 

[Fanto]

Oh, and I didn't include any fake claims in the spreadsheet, but yeah both Scum and the SK will have fake flavor and role claims provided to them.

 

[Faddy]

Ok here's a link to a spreadsheet with all the role PMs.

I didn't really make any changes to the role mechanics, I just gave a few of the roles new names that are a little more in line with the flavor.

One thing I was kind of going back and forth on was how much the Coroner should be told in their PM about what kind of information they can receive from inspecting a dead player. Right now I'm just leaving it vague, but let me know if you think it should maybe be more specific than that.

What is the purpose of the coroner? I see it as a role that confirms the mafia target or exposes that there is an SK, although the SK thing should be obvious but a good player might be able to sell themselves as a vigilante.

I think the Coroner should get told the flavour name of the killer, but that assumes that Mark Jefferson is the obvious name of a serial killer. If they choose a ninja'd kill they are told they cannot determine the killer's name. If there is a janitor kill the flavour text explicitly says that there is No Body.

Since mafia will have fake claims it doesn't matter for them. Are there are any role names that directly link to flavour? Is the doctor's name a doctor in LiS for example because that would provide a negative utility for town mass claiming.

 

[Faddy]

I think the biggest issue I have is the function of the rewinder.

That is a role that should never be used by town as it is. It gives up the lynch which is town's only method of killing and could effectively lose town the game and it could be very annoying for people playing the game. In a big game I could see this being ok but in a small game with potentially multiple night kills it is a bit too powerful.

Instead of automatically going for no lynch the power could reset the day and all votes to zero. This is easy enough to do on the vote tool. You just enter the Day Ends Commands and then Day Begins command. I think this would be a good power because lots of time people put a vote down and then never re-evaluate or participate in the game. Giving someone the power to reset the vote total could lead to a lot of interesting interactions in the game.

 

[Fanto]

What is the purpose of the coroner? I see it as a role that confirms the mafia target or exposes that there is an SK, although the SK thing should be obvious but a good player might be able to sell themselves as a vigilante.

I think the Coroner should get told the flavour name of the killer, but that assumes that Mark Jefferson is the obvious name of a serial killer. If they choose a ninja'd kill they are told they cannot determine the killer's name. If there is a janitor kill the flavour text explicitly says that there is No Body.

Since mafia will have fake claims it doesn't matter for them. Are there are any role names that directly link to flavour? Is the doctor's name a doctor in LiS for example because that would provide a negative utility for town mass claiming.

Yeah the Coroner is there just to kind of fill things in, and since like you listed, there are a few different results they could end up getting actually since there is the SK running around, and then the Ninja/Janitor shots for the Mafia, it would be kind of an interesting one to throw in I felt like.

Getting the flavor name might work yeah, because it would reveal the SK's existence in the game to anyone who's played LiS if they went for their target. The Mafia flavor names would also be rather obvious which is why they'll have fake ones too.

As for Town, the only ones that would be really obvious would be Max (Rewind), David (Cop), and Frank (Drug Dealer) since those are their "roles" in the game as well. The others wouldn't really correlate like that.

I think the biggest issue I have is the function of the rewinder.

That is a role that should never be used by town as it is. It gives up the lynch which is town's only method of killing and could effectively lose town the game and it could be very annoying for people playing the game. In a big game I could see this being ok but in a small game with potentially multiple night kills it is a bit too powerful.

Instead of automatically going for no lynch the power could reset the day and all votes to zero. This is easy enough to do on the vote tool. You just enter the Day Ends Commands and then Day Begins command. I think this would be a good power because lots of time people put a vote down and then never re-evaluate or participate in the game. Giving someone the power to reset the vote total could lead to a lot of interesting interactions in the game.

That is actually a really cool idea yeah. The no lynch idea was just the first thing Bae and I thought of when she floated out the idea of a rewind ability, but just completely resetting the day's votes instead, I really like that idea.

So would they just be resetting the vote totals when they use it, or is the day also getting fully reset? Like if it was used with 1 hour left, would the day just be extended by another 48 hours as well?

 

[Geno]

I'll read everything tomorrow and give my thoughts as well.

 

[Faddy]

So would they just be resetting the vote totals when they use it, or is the day also getting fully reset? Like if it was used with 1 hour left, would the day just be extended by another 48 hours as well?

I would not extend the day for that long. The idea is to make people reconsider and think quickly. So maybe an extra 30 minutes if the power is used closer than 30 minutes to deadline.

Or no extension and the power cannot be used close to the day end. Barred 1 hour from EoD. 1 hour is a reasonable amount of time...or 30 minutes if you are feeling unreasonable.

 

[Fanto]

One thing I'd also like to hear your thoughts on regarding the Snitch/Singer role, do you think that their killer should receive the name and role of a random player, or just the role?

Because if it's the former it's basically a hidden role cop shot with a random target for whoever kills them at night, but the latter would weaken it's usefulness a bit since they would only have half the info, they wouldn't know who the role belongs to.

 

[Fanto]

I would not extend the day for that long. The idea is to make people reconsider and think quickly. So maybe an extra 30 minutes if the power is used closer than 30 minutes to deadline.

Or no extension and the power cannot be used close to the day end. Barred 1 hour from EoD. 1 hour is a reasonable amount of time...or 30 minutes if you are feeling unreasonable.

Ok yeah, I'd probably go for the restriction that it can't be used less than an hour before EoD. Because I would like to see the scramble that would cause while everyone needs to put new votes down, but I wouldn't want to just ruin the day for people if someone pulled that shit right at EoD haha.

I'll get that change worked in later tonight and figure out how I want to word that exactly.

 

[Fanto]

One thing that has occurred to me is how the Motivator would apply to the JoaT.

I'm currently thinking I would just leave it up to the JoaT to decide which shot they want for an extra one, so basically just make it a wild card shot for them if they do get targeted by the Motivator.

On a related note, the Role-Stopper might need to be dropped down to a 1-Shot now that I think about it, because if the Motivator gave them an extra one that would be quite the boost to the Scum Team I would think, wouldn't it? 2-Shot is already probably a bit much for that power anyways since it can kind of act like a Strongman shot when combined with the kill on the same target.

 

[Geno]

Sorry it took so long, finals and KH3 is a deadly combo, I agree with the changes Faddy suggested, even though I don't think the Coroner is a useful role really. Snitch should probably give the name out as well, otherwise I don't see it being useful to Scum.

 

[Fanto]

I have been considering swapping the Coroner out for another miscellaneous role now yeah, probably something else that aligns with the flavor. I'll put some more thought into that and probably toss out a couple ideas here soon. Because yeah, I feel like the 1-Shot Watcher is the better investigator to have alongside the somewhat strange Cop role that I'm going for; the Coroner is kind of the odd man out.

Could the Coroner get turned into a fake claim for the Mafia then instead perhaps?

And then yeah, I'll make sure the Snitch role PM makes that more clear, because that is how I had been picturing it working in my head so far, but I figured I'd ask.

 

[Geno]

Oh wow oops, I meant the rewinder instead of coroner in my post, my bad.

 

[Fanto]

Oh haha, well still, I had been thinking that way about the Coroner while looking at all the roles, so I still might do that.

For the Rewind, the way I see it right now is that it could be used to try to shake up the vote situation for a day close to, but not right at, EoD. It's definitely an odd role, and I'd still be open to other changes to it while we have the chance still, but just for flavor purposes there almost has to be some kind of time rewind role in the game, and resetting the votes is one good way to express that in game I think.

Another thing I could think of would be some kind of delayed effect, like blocking someone on one night but then letting it go through the next night, but that's kind of boring in comparison haha. I feel like it would be coolest as a day power of some kind where they can just say "Rewind" in the thread and then some dope shit happens haha.

 

[Faddy]

In role madness there needs to be a balance of role types. Not everyone can be a cop or a doctor.

I like the coroner role. There is a lot of nuance to it depending on how its used. I think it works fine as a filler role that has more utility than vanilla.

 

[Faddy]

Another thing I could think of would be some kind of delayed effect, like blocking someone on one night but then letting it go through the next night, but that's kind of boring in comparison haha. I feel like it would be coolest as a day power of some kind where they can just say "Rewind" in the thread and then some dope shit happens haha.

A delay could be really bad for town. Worse than the role stopper if it delays a check on mafia or even worse a kill on mafia or the SK.

 

[Fanto]

Not everyone can be a cop or a doctor.

Challenge accepted for my next game. ;)

But yeah, I do like the idea of the Coroner getting the flavor name of the killer still, that would be fun. And it does have an interesting relationship with the Ninja/Janitor shots from the JoaT as well, so I guess maybe it isn't quite the odd man out that I was starting to think it was.

 

[Fanto]

Updated the Role PM spreadsheet to reword the Snitch and the Coroner's PMs to make them a bit less vague. I also went ahead and made the Role-Stopper a 1-Shot for now like I was talking about the other day.

 

[Faddy]

I think if you reduce the role stopper to 1 shot then you should not refund a shot to the blocked player.

I actually don't think a 2 shot rolestopper was too bad. Mafia can only block 1 person per night and there are lots of good PRs out there. And the rolestopper helps with the fact there is a doctor but no strongman.

 

[Fanto]

Yeah, I'm just worried about the Motivator giving them an extra shot and how that would affect things. I do like that it works as a way to get around the Doctor for them, as well as using it defensively, which is why I had it at 2 shots to begin with.

If I remember right, me and Bae were talking about this too before I submitted the game for review, and she said to just keep it at 2 shots and see what the reviewers thought lol. So I guess if you're ok with it, then it's probably fine at 2 and I'm just worrying too much haha.

 

[Faddy]

If the Motivator gives the mafia an extra shot then that is a reward for mafia for being townie and playing well but it isn't like an additional kill.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, so for the fake role claims, what we had down from earlier was:

• Mafia
  • Roleblocker
  • 1-Shot Vigilante
  • TBD Passive Role
• Serial Killer
  • Miller

I'd say those all still make sense in my mind, I just need to figure out what the fake passive role claim for Mafia should be.

I think a Bulletproof shot might be a little too suspect on the surface. But then also, considering the Godfather can't be killed at night, it's kind of fits in as a half truth like all the others, right?

Something flavor based... not sure where I would go with that, maybe coming up with a fake role name that fits the flavor like I did for some of the real Town roles? That would make sense, at the least it would give it some kind of feeling of legitimacy over just saying "I'm a Bulletproof!" or whatever.

I feel like it shouldn't be this hard to think of a fake claim, but here I am lol.

Just trying to brainstorm some ideas here because it's something that keeps coming up in my mind while I'm trying to get a picture of the whole game in my head.

 

[Faddy]

What was wrong with the Restless Spirit idea?

1 day restless spirit, can vote on the day after their death is a fine fake claim. It makes sense, the game is small, there are probably going to be many kills. Giving town an extra vote at a point seems totally reasonable. And it has a nice flavour aspect with the Spirit Animals thing.

You need name claims too. From my extensive LiS knowledge of reading the wiki, what is wrong with Rachel Amber or Samuel Taylor as Restless Spirit?

 

[Fanto]

Nothing wrong with it, other than Geno said he wasn't a fan of that kind of role as a fake claim, so I wanted to try thinking of other ones too. I do like that it makes sense both mechanically and within the flavor too, which was why I suggested it first.

Also, your reading of the LiS wiki has given you good insight here, yes lol. I was going to give Rachel as a fake name claim for sure. Others on my mind for the Mafia are Samuel, and then either Daniel or Stella, so you got 2 of my top choices correct there haha.

 

[Fanto]

I guess my one issue is that it almost feels too real lol like that should maybe be an actual role in this game haha. But then maybe that's what makes it a good fake claim? It's way better than the others in terms of like, immediate believability I feel like.

 

[Faddy]

I guess my one issue is that it almost feels too real lol like that should maybe be an actual role in this game haha. But then maybe that's what makes it a good fake claim? It's way better than the others in terms of like, immediate believability I feel like.

I was thinking why isn't that a role? But it has the disadvantage of being "provable" at a final 4 of 3 town and 1 mafia.

None of these fake claims are rock solid but they all serve a purpose.

Roleblocker, people think that is always scum, but with the SK it makes it slightly more town
1 shot vigi has the drawback of having to sell where the kill went and why you did it
Restless Spirit has that late game drawback but is a nice claim

Fake claims should be believable. And mafia still have the option of going off script and doing their own thing if they don't like the safe claims

 

[Fanto]

Yeah, it does fit in well with the others in that way. It's pretty believable on the surface, but does still have a drawback eventually. I hadn't considered that 3 vs 1 situation where they could be a "proof" kill for Town, so yeah, that's a good point for sure.

Ok, so, I would say for the full Fake Claim Suite, it should be fine looking like this:

• Mafia
  • Fake Roles
    • Roleblocker
    • 1-Shot Vigilante
    • Restless Spirit
  • Fake Names
    • Rachel Amber
    • Samuel Taylor
    • Daniel DaCosta
• Serial Killer
  • Fake Role
    • Miller
  • Fake Name
    • Hawt Dawg Man

For the Serial Killer, I would guess they'll need those to be given to them as an addendum to their Role PM, so I'll figure out how I want to word all of that and get it included in the spreadsheet. Should I just tell them like, "You can use the following safe claims to keep your identity hidden" or something like that?

For the Mafia, from what I recall when I was Scum at least, I would just post all of those at the start of their thread and then let them decide if and when they want to use them, right? I can still add them in on the spreadsheet somewhere too though, maybe underneath the scum roles, just to keep track.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, spreadsheet updated again to add in the fake claims to the SK's role PM, and then I jotted down the Mafia's claims as well.

 

[Faddy]

I think this is making great progress. Time for the next few things to go over.

Best case scenarios...

----
For Mafia kill all town, avoid all protections

Day 1 - 1 mislynch.
Night 1 - 3 dead town
Day 2 - 1 mislynch
Night 2 - 2 Dead town

At this point it is 3 mafia, 1 sk, 4 town.
If there is a mislynch it is 3-1-3.
If the SK and mafia hits town it is 3 mafia vs 1 town 1 sk.

Mafia wins start of day 4.

---
For Town lynch mafia and get help from the SK

Day 1 - lynch mafia
Night 1 - mafia killed by SK
Day 2 - lynch mafia/sk

Day 3 - lynch mafia/sk

Town wins at End of Day 3

----
For the Serial Killer miss all protection, lynch the Godmother

Day 1 - lynch
Night 1 - 3 kills
Day 2 - lynch
Night 2 - 2 kills
Day 3 - lynch
Night 3 - 2 kills
Day 4 - lynch
Night 4 - 2 kills

2 players remain. SK wins UNLESS the Mafia Godmoher (NK immune) is alive... or the rolestopper with 2 shots

SK wins start of Day 5

 

[Faddy]

I think the Godmother should have the same BP as the SK instead of being night kill immune because there are going to be scenarios where the SK is just screwed by the immunity.

If they both have equal BP at the end in a 1 v 1 the SK wins. If Mafia has BP and the SK doesn't the mafia should win.

The bulletproof stuff also complicates the end game scenarios in 1 v 1 v 1. Also 2 town vs 1 mafia vs sk.

You can think about that....

 

[Fanto]

Ok, so, for the Town and Mafia best case scenarios, those seem obviously unlikely, but ultimately fair at least to me.

Town would need to get 3 correct lynches in a row from D1 with the SK also shooting Mafia for them. That would be quite the performance for Town to pull that off, with or without help from the Cop or the Watcher, plus they'd still need some help from the SK too to make it go that quickly.

Mafia or SK hitting the Hider's target on N1 could be kind of swingy, but then Town would need to keep mislynching for two more days to lose still, while also having the SK not hit Mafia at night for them. So yeah, unlikely but fair still as far as I can tell. And this is also assuming that neither the Mafia or SK hit a protected target or each other too, so yeah.

The Serial Killer though, yeah I agree, they could actually get totally screwed over by the Godmother's full immunity to night kills if she's still around at the end game even if everything else goes perfectly for them. Giving the Godmother a 1-Shot BP instead might be the best way to keep that from getting ridiculous.

So, if we switch the Godmother to a 1-Shot BP, then those scenarios might play out a little more normally I think where it will depend on who has their BP shot still. And if both are still active, then I guess it will come down to who shoots Town and who doesn't, and some funny things will probably happen, but ultimately the game should still end normally and I don't think anyone would feel cheated.

So yeah, I think it would make most sense to just do that. As it currently is, the SK has a chance to land in a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation at end game even if everything else goes their way. That's probably not fair to them compared to the best case scenarios for the other factions.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, I went ahead and added in the same wording that the SK has about their BP shot to the Godmother's PM instead of the line about being fully immune to night kills.

 

[Faddy]

You could give the SK the win in a 1-1-1 scenario. That would simplify things a bit

Wincon : You win when there are 1 town and 1 mafia remaining.

You could also change the mafia win con to the more standard 50% of the vote instead of majority. That means mafia win in a 3m-2t-sk and 2m-1t-sk scenarios. That seems to work. Town don't really have a lot of outs in those conditions anyway and it is at least 3 mislynches.

 

[Faddy]

Ok how do town realistically win this game?

They need to lynch the SK as soon as possible. The PRs need to get saves and checks.

 

[Fanto]

For the SK win, yeah that would make the 1-1-1 situation a lot easier to handle. I think it would also get rid of what would probably be a really awkward day phase for all three of the players involved haha. I could see that being a better way to word their win con than just "when all other players are dead" yeah.

For the Mafia, I had actually meant "majority" to mean 50% or more, but I'll make sure to go word that correctly in the PMs.

----------------------------

How do Town realistically win the game? Well, get ready for me to ramble about all the scenarios that have been running around in my head so far! Lol.

Yes, the stronger PRs are a big part of it, as well as lynching the SK within the first few days.

I think the Watcher is Town's strongest ability and they have the biggest chance to find the Serial Killer because the SK has no counter to them unlike the Mafia. The Watcher is only 1-shot now, I think I started with them at 2 for this reason, but I can understand why we moved them down to 1 since it is a very powerful role.

The Cop would get a red check on the SK, but the SK has their Miller claim. It would be up to Town whether or not to buy that claim. The Cop can also get red checks on 2/3 of the Mafia members. Of course, the Cop check comes in the form of a PM sent to a random player, so the result can be sent to the Mafia or the SK even, so that's what keeps that from being too strong. It's also only 1 shot.

Then there's the protection. The Hider has 2 shots and can try to bait out a kill on themselves. They also are not a weak Hider, they can hide behind the Mafia or SK at night, so there are 2 BPs floating around out there for them to hide behind too to lessen their chances of dying with their target. The Doctor also has 2 shots, though right now they cannot target themselves or the same person twice in a row.

And of course, if the Motivator hits one of the 4 roles mentioned above, that would be a good boost for them as well at any point in the game I think.

Aside from all this, there's the good old fashioned Process of Elimination that can take place once some of the other role claims come out since it is Role Madness.

Basically, I think a lot of it for Town will boil down to who the Mafia and the SK target at night, and how the Watcher/Cop/Doctor/Hider/Motivator play with their roles since those are the strongest ones that Town have, but they are also limited in different ways.

There is obviously going to be a lot of random chance for this stuff just because of the two Anti-Town killing roles existing in a 15 person game, but that's part of what should make it fun for Town too I think. Town should be scrambling to find the SK early, those PRs should be trying their best to make sure they come back with something useful with the limited amount of shots they have. It's going to be pretty scary out there for them if they don't take it seriously, that's for sure.

I suppose if I wanted to boost Town's chances right now, I'd say one of those 5 best roles they have should either get an extra shot if they only have 1, or have a restriction or negative aspect removed or altered. Either that, or I'd probably bring the Role-Stopper back down to 1-shot just to keep Mafia from thinking too highly of themselves.

 

[Fanto]

The Role-Stopper on my mind again, maybe just say fuck it and change them to a normal Roleblocker instead? It would get rid of the "we can use this like a strongman shot" aspect which I do like, but it's also a bit less OP against Town here I think? And do they really need to be able to bypass the protection with those shots? I think Mafia would be fine with a normal Roleblocker, still 2 shot, and they can still use it as a "fake" claim. It's a little more boring, but probably makes more sense.

 

[Geno]

Wow you guys talked a lot, sorry I can't be as active.
Anyway, RB staying at 2 shots is fine IMO, shouldn't the SK have the vigilante fake claim and one of the mafias the Miller?
Also for the vest thing, you can have the SK fire Strongman shots that can bypass BP's if less than X players remain in the game, so the SK can kill the Godmother in 1 shot, lastly I think the Mafia win condition should be more like "Mafia holds 50% or more of the votes and all threats to Mafia are eliminated", otherwise let's say day enters with 1 SK , 1 Town and 2 Mafias, in the event of no lynch, Mafia shoots the Town, SK shoots a Mafia, 1 SK and 1 Mafia remain, if SK has the BP shot then they can win.

 

[Fanto]

I think both claims would work for the SK, yeah. I kind of like them with the Miller claim just because the Cop would get a Not Town result on them, and that way the Watcher has a chance to catch them red handed without them turning around and claiming Vig. Although the fact that the SK could shoot Mafia would give the Vig claim more cred probably, so I can get behind that too. I'll think about it some more, because whichever one they have will counter them possibly being caught by either the Cop or the Watcher, at least enough to where Town will need to decide what they want to do with them next rather than just getting a red check and being done with it.

The SK firing Strongman shots at end game is something I had not considered. That would be another way to get around that awkward scenario for them.

Yeah, good point about the Mafia win condition. The SK is an equal threat to their win as it is to Town's since they need both of them dead, so both should probably need to eliminate the SK in order to win as well.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, I changed the Mafia and SK win conditions on the spreadsheet for now.

Mafia:

You will win the game when the Mafia controls 50% or more of the votes, and all threats to the Mafia are eliminated.

SK:

You will win the game when there are 1 Town and 1 Mafia (or less) remaining.

I think like this, it makes it so that in a 1-1-1 final three, the SK wins, period.

In a 2 Mafia, 1 Town, 1 SK and there's a No Lynch, both the Mafia and the SK could still possibly win depending on whether or not the Mafia can kill the SK at night, right?

If it's 2 Town, 1 Mafia, 1 SK, then Town could conceivably No Lynch and still win if the Mafia and SK shoot each other, right? Otherwise, if both Town die or 1 Mafia 1 Town die, SK wins. If Mafia can kill the SK and SK shoots a Townie, Mafia wins.

-----------

I think I have that all straight in my head, but it's kind of confusing, so walk me through that stuff if I got it wrong lol.

 

[Fanto]

So if I just went ahead and changed the Rolestopper to a normal Roleblocker, would there be any problems with that?

For one, the Mafia wouldn't be able to bypass the Doctor's protection anymore unless they personally roleblocked them. The other thing that would change is that they could now block the SK and prevent him from killing, when before they could not.

I don't think Mafia really needs a direct way around the protection, otherwise I'd just give the JoaT a Strongman shot instead of a Janitor shot. As for the second part, it could actually help the Mafia find the SK even if there is a kill missing on a night when they blocked someone.

They'd still have 2 shots, and blocked shots would still get refunded, the role would just be brought back to a more standard one instead of the fancy one I had before.

 

[Fanto]

So I guess the questions flying around in my head right now are:

• Is it too hard for Town to win?
• Are those changes to the SK and Mafia win conditions ok?
• Should I keep the Godmother as a 1-shot bulletproof just like the SK, or change that situation up some more?
• Should the SK get the Vig claim instead?
• Rolestopper or Roleblocker?

 

[Fanto]

And just to answer my own questions with how I'm feeling right now:

• No.
• Yes.
• Keep it how it currently is.
• No.
• Roleblocker.

 

[Geno]

No
Yes
IMO change it a bit, like I proposed.
Yes, serial killers usually have a very difficult time winning.
Roleblocker
Just my opinions though.

 

[Faddy]

Here is why I think the vig claim is bad for the serial killer. With the mafia getting the info about having a threat against them a claim of vigilante by the SK immediately gives them away to mafia imo. Where as a Miller claim gives the SK a decision to make right away about fake claiming early rather than just playing a safe game. It also tells them they are vulnerable to cop checks.

Mafia getting a 1 shot vig claim allows them to gambit their kills a bit if they want to "verify" the claim. It doesn't immediately out them to the Serial Killer like the reverse situation does.

 

[Fanto]

Ok yeah, I can get behind the idea of the SK firing Strongman shots when there are, what, 5 or less players left maybe? That way it will always be active during the 4-player end game scenarios we've discussed for them. Would they need it to be active before that, or should it be limited to just in the 4 player scenarios?

As for the Vig claim, yeah I agree with Faddy on that one. Giving the SK a Miller claim just made immediate sense to me when he first proposed that.

-------------

I'll get these changes worked into the spreadsheet soon, mainly rewording the SK and Godmother role PMs again, and then also rewriting the Rolestopper as a Roleblocker.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, I changed the Godmother to instead of saying "immune to night kills" like it was before, it now says "In addition, you also wear a Bulletproof Vest which keeps you protected from kills at night." I think saying "immune" like I did before would imply that Strongman shots wouldn't even kill them, whereas now I'm saying they have a Bulletproof Vest, and that would only protect from normal kills.

For the SK, the role now says "If there are 5 or less players in the game, your kill will bypass any protection on your target." I think that should be fine?

And then for the Roleblocker I just changed the wording around so it made sense with that standard style instead.

---------------------

Let me know what you think about those changes and/or if anything needs to be worded differently, or any other ideas on how to handle that situation. I think both this way and the 1-Shot BPs are fine solutions, but I do kind of like this one a bit more now that I've actually gone and written down the role changes.

 

[Geno]

A miller is sometimes a policy lynch when the game is near the end, that's one reason I'm opposed to the idea, why will the mafia get info about a threat against them? Is there any specific reason?

 

[Fanto]

Well, they will be told in their win condition that they need 50% or more of the votes and to eliminate all "threats" to them, so they know there is a threat out there. I can see where Faddy is coming from there because I think the Mafia would be way more suspicious of a Vig claim in that case than Town would be.

I can also understand the point about Millers being policy lynches though, which would make that kind of rough. Like, it would obviously be unlucky at any point for them if they have to bust out the Miller claim, whether it's during a mass claim, after a red check, or during some sort of Gambit. Towards the end of the game I could totally see them getting lynched for the claim alone, yeah, which is another spot where they can kind of have the rug pulled out from under them when they start to get close to their win.

Is there something else that would fit well with the SK for a fake claim if we decide against the Miller? They are more vulnerable to the Cop check again without that claim. Maybe swap it to something that would mess with the Watcher possibly checking them instead? Sleepwalker maybe?

 

[Faddy]

A miller is sometimes a policy lynch when the game is near the end, that's one reason I'm opposed to the idea, why will the mafia get info about a threat against them? Is there any specific reason?

Because it says so in their win condition. Plus one of them has a bulletproof vest.

 

[Geno]

Because it says so in their win condition. Plus one of them has a bulletproof vest.

Vest could've been there for an actual vig, I'm fine with it not being vig but with a miller fakeclaim I don't think there's any chance of the SK winning, it definitely needs to change.

 

[Faddy]

Vest could've been there for an actual vig, I'm fine with it not being vig but with a miller fakeclaim I don't think there's any chance of the SK winning, it definitely needs to change.

I heavily disagree. Miller is a legit role and there is no reason to policy lynch it at all. And it is very unlikely town is going to have a spare lynch in this game just sitting around.

Fake claims aren't there to clear the non town players, they are given so the game cannot be broken with a mass claim.

And just from a balance perspective the SK is already getting a BP so their claim being of negative utility is fine imo. The claim also does not require the SK to fake any checks, protects or other movement in the game that could be caught by the watcher which is a positive for them.

 

[Fanto]

And it is very unlikely town is going to have a spare lynch in this game just sitting around.

This is true, yeah, I kind of doubt Town would find themselves in that position.

One scenario I can think of is if the Mafia has already been removed from the game, and it's just Town vs. SK. At that point, I could see the Miller claim basically writing the SK's death sentence for them.

But if there is still a Mafia and a SK running around, I don't think Town can afford to just lynch sketchy claims for being sketchy claims alone, they would need more than that I think. It could be a part of why they want to lynch them, but I don't know if they'd want to just policy lynch and move on right away when the risk of a mislynch followed by 2 night kills is very scary in a smaller sized game.

 

[Faddy]

If town is ever in the position of being 4 v 1 against the SK and they policy lynch the miller claim then town deserves the win.

 

[Fanto]

Yeah, that Town would basically be a bunch of all-stars at that point lol.

Is there any other conceivable spot where Town would have that kind of luxury? Obviously they can do whatever they want, and who am I to try to guess how Town will play my game, but they would be kind of shooting themselves in the foot if they just start policy lynching.

They'd technically want to policy lynch their Snitch too, right? But then that could lead to 3 straight Town deaths. The same could be said of policy lynching a claimed Miller, right? Which then I think goes back to your point about fake claims being there to prevent a mass claim from solving the game by itself. Right now, I think these claims do all help accomplish that overall goal.

 

[Geno]

Fine, have it your way, but the SK is not going to win.

 

[Fanto]

I mean, I offered a different possible claim, which would be a Visitor/Sleepwalker, but no one commented on it. That's the only other suggestion that's been offered so far. If you really think the SK has no chance of winning with the Miller claim, then help me think of something else?

 

[Geno]

I mean, I offered a different possible claim, which would be a Visitor/Sleepwalker, but no one commented on it. That's the only other suggestion that's been offered so far. If you really think the SK has no chance of winning with the Miller claim, then help me think of something else?

I propose a new solution, make the SK kill X amount of people and then exit the game, maybe 2 town and 1 mafia?

 

[Fanto]

Well, killing 3 people was my original idea for their win con, yes, so I could get behind that as an alternative that we can consider for sure.

So just to make sure I understand your full position here: You don't think the SK could win at end-game with the Miller fake claim, but if they were able to exit the game earlier than that with a different win con, then you think the Miller claim would be fine. Is that right?

Would anything need to be changed about the SK if we were to change their win con to that? Would they still get the BP shot? Would they still fire Strongman shots at end game if they haven't killed enough people yet?

 

[Fanto]

Also there is the edge case to consider where Town lynches all 3 Mafia members before the SK can shoot one to fulfill their win con. What would they do in that case?

 

[Geno]

Well, killing 3 people was my original idea for their win con, yes, so I could get behind that as an alternative that we can consider for sure.

So just to make sure I understand your full position here: You don't think the SK could win at end-game with the Miller fake claim, but if they were able to exit the game earlier than that with a different win con, then you think the Miller claim would be fine. Is that right?

Would anything need to be changed about the SK if we were to change their win con to that? Would they still get the BP shot? Would they still fire Strongman shots at end game if they haven't killed enough people yet?

Correct, miller claim is fine if that's the route we are going with, they can keep the BP but the strongman shots will probably need to go. If town lynches all 3 there are 2 solutions, either they are automatically made a survivor, therefore they win, or they lose the game.

 

[Fanto]

I suppose one thing that comes to mind are the Town and Mafia win conditions, stating they need to eliminate all threats before they can win. I suppose a SK who no longer has a chance of winning the game isn't really a threat anymore, but it would still feel kind of weird to me to have the SK win alongside them as a Survivor. I think if we go that route, I'd rather the SK just lose in that spot, or any spot where they can't get their required kills anymore. I wouldn't want them to win with Town or Mafia, I think they should need to get that win on their own, or else lose, in my opinion at least.

----------------

So I suppose the two proposals for the SK are as follows then:

• The SK wins the game when there are 1 Mafia and 1 Town, or less, remaining. They have a 1-Shot Bulletproof Vest. They can fire Strongman shots when there are 5 or less players left in the game. They have a fake claim of Miller.
• The SK wins and exits the game when they kill 3 players, 2 Town and 1 Mafia (for now at least, I'm open to working on this some more still). They have a 1-Shot Bulletproof Vest. They will lose the game if they are unable to kill the required amount of players from each faction. They have a fake claim of Miller.

I'll give some thought to these, and would also like to hear what Faddy thinks about the other proposal here.

I'd probably want to do another rundown of what the best-case scenario would be for the SK under this new win con and how that sets up the rest of the game for Town and Mafia following their exit.

I'd also like to see if there are any end-game scenarios that would get weird with this win con. Like, if the SK is still around in a final 3 or 4 scenario while still not having killed enough players. It should be fine I would guess, but I'll still probably want to run that through and see if anything changes in those spots.

 

[Fanto]

So the best case scenario for the SK with that win con would be that they get 3 straight kills, 1 Mafia and 2 Town, and then exit the game at the start of D4. There's a few different scenarios for how this would impact the remaining Town and Mafia players depending on who was lynched on D1-D3 and whether or not there was protection on any of the Mafia's targets.

Assuming that Town got unlucky with their protection and the Mafia was able to get 3 Town dead on those 3 nights, then the scenarios look like this:

• If it was 3 straight mislynches for Town, then that would be 3 Town and 2 Mafia left at that point, which is LyLo.
• If it was 2 mislynches and 1 Mafia lynch, then that would be 4 Town and 1 Mafia left.
• If it was 1 mislynch and 2 Mafia lynches, then that would be 5 Town left and they win at the start of D4 too.

And if we start mixing in the possibility of protection on the Mafia's kill targets, then Town has an additional 1 or more members in each of those scenarios instead.

I think I got my math right on all of that, but let me know if I messed it up.

 

[Fanto]

Oh, and then add in the possibility of the Hider's target, fuck I forgot all about that lol. There is a chance for it to be 2 Town 2 Mafia then as well, right?

 

[Faddy]

Fine, have it your way, but the SK is not going to win.

The SK should not have an equal chance of winning anyway.

In balance town should have the best chance of winning, then mafia, then 3rd party.

I think the game is fine as is. If we want to sit and debate the merits of a Miller that is fine but ultimately Fantomas you have to decide what you want. Let's not get hung up over a fake claim.

 

[Fanto]

I just don't want to dismiss anyone's concerns, that's all. This is less about the fake claim and more about the other win condition now. I am pro-Miller claim, and both of them include the Miller claim.

I also think the game is fine as is, but I can at least understand Geno's concern, and I can see how this alternative win condition would alleviate it now that he has offered it as a possibility.

If there aren't any major problems with it, then I don't see why it wouldn't be equally as valid, which means I have a choice to make, which means I should at least think about it for a little bit.

 

[Geno]

The SK should not have an equal chance of winning anyway.

In balance town should have the best chance of winning, then mafia, then 3rd party.

I think the game is fine as is. If we want to sit and debate the merits of a Miller that is fine but ultimately Fantomas you have to decide what you want. Let's not get hung up over a fake claim.

What you are saying is that the SK should join the game at a disadvantage, I don't agree at all.
Everyone should have an equal chance of winning if they play their cards right. SK should not be required to make mastermind level plays for a win, that's not balanced at all.

 

[Fanto]

I guess where I'm at with the SK currently is: I think altering their win condition is going to take some work and looking back at stuff that we've already gone over and balanced for their current win condition, and possibly altering other roles (like the Godmother again) too.

It's not that I would be opposed to doing the work and making the effort, I always figured the SK was going to be the most difficult part of this, but I do think the way it is right now is the result of a lot of good brainstorming from this thread already.

Apart from the concern about the Miller fake claim and how that could play out, I think they are pretty well balanced like this. I think it would be difficult for them to get the win compared to a Town or Mafia win, but I also don't think they'd be coming for my head necessarily if they lost.

 

[Faddy]

What you are saying is that the SK should join the game at a disadvantage, I don't agree at all.
Everyone should have an equal chance of winning if they play their cards right. SK should not be required to make mastermind level plays for a win, that's not balanced at all.

The SK is always at a disadvantage. They can't be lynched once where as town and mafia can afford to be lynched and still win. It is impossible for them to have the same chance.

If anything is stopping the SK from having a fair chance it is a mafia BP tbh.

----
The more I think about it, sticking to conventional win conditions is better
I think the wording of the win conditions should be changed so they follow the C9++ format which we use for mini mafia.

Win condition:
TOWN

• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Win condition:
MAFIA

• You win when the Mafia obtain a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Win condition:
SERIAL KILLER

• You win when you are the last player alive or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

 

[Fanto]

Would "nothing can prevent this from occuring" cover the 1-1-1 final three for the SK?

 

[Faddy]

Would "nothing can prevent this from occuring" cover the 1-1-1 final three for the SK?

No. I think in those games the situation just plays out.
Here is a 6 year old discussion on the topic lol.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=22665&start=2250

Maybe keep the SK win con that you have then.

I really think mafia does not need that BP. It also takes away an complaint that mafia might have if they have a BP left and the SK doesn't, but the SK gets strong shots for seemingly no reason other than to screw them over.

 

[Fanto]

First of all, that discussion is fascinating lol.

At 1:1:1, the only course of action that mafia can perform to win (rather than to draw) is to target the SK.
Similarly, the only course of action that SK can perform to win (rather than to draw) is to target the mafia.

BUT both mafia and SK knows this. Mafia knows that SK has to target the mafia. SK knows that mafia has to target the SK.

And they both knows that such combination of actions result in town win.

WHICH MEANS. they are both playing to lose. And playing to lose would be a violation of the site rules.

However, yes, I would want to just keep the SK the same as we have them, basically for that reason alone lol.

-----------

As for the Mafia having the BP, yeah, good point. It makes sense for the SK to have it for the self preservation aspect of their role, it prevents them from just dying on N1 and shrugging their shoulders at the least. With the Mafia, they are small in number which is why I worried about them maybe getting cleaned up too easily, but then again the SK might not want to start shooting at people they think are Mafia until later in the game since they'll need plenty of Town deaths for their win too.

TLDR:
Yeah, I'll probably go reword the Town and Mafia win conditions later tonight some time, and I'll see what it looks like when I take out the BP from the Godmother role too.

 

[Fanto]

Ok, Mafia and Town have their newly worded win conditions.

The Godmother is no longer Bulletproof.

The SK no longer fires Strongman shots at end game (no need if the Godmother isn't BP, right?)

 

[dragon mom]

Sorry I've been MIA, but I'm here now. Tbh I think the SK needs a total rework, I like the other role ideas and changes but that one seems like it doesnt really fit all that well.