Ideas for the game (Am I doing this right?)

[lokiduck]

I like that. But would it be directed or randomized?

I'm leaning towards it to be directed, but having it be randomized would make more sense lore wise.

Edit: If direct then it can help town as he can investigate scum or talk with town read townies. If it's random then it might hurt town.

Also what if there's a condition that he dies if the person he's sharing a dream with dies?

 

[Verelios]

Yeah that sounds like a good idea, but we do have a lot of protection running around.

I relooked up Halua's story on the wiki and the main thing that seems to fit her is a protective role because she ended up doing what she did to protect Emil, but again we got too many of those right now.

Oh what if the mayor can randomly talk with other players in his dreams or something? For whatever reason SB connects him to them at night and they get a night chat? Basically a different flavor version of a gossip.

I think we could make Halua a vanilla. It all depends on if you're thinking of going the role madneds route.

 

[Verelios]

Could a role cop possible work???

A role cop would work, and it synergizes really well with SK. The only problem is if it should be X-shot?

 

[lokiduck]

I think we could make Halua a vanilla. It all depends on if you're thinking of going the role madneds route.

I'm leaning towards role madness as I think it's more fun. If we keep Halua then we have to pick her over one of the other townies such as this mayor, Ursula, or Hans (our sweet and beautiful mailman)

A role cop would work, and it synergizes really well with SK. The only problem is if it should be X-shot?

I haven't really figured out how many shots most of our cops will get. I feel like Fisherman should get unlimited since he's getting weird hints anyways while other always helpful roles should be limited.

 

[Verelios]

I'm leaning towards it to be directed, but having it be randomized would make more sense lore wise.

Edit: If direct then it can help town as he can investigate scum or talk with town read townies. If it's random then it might hurt town.

Also what if there's a condition that he dies if the person he's sharing a dream with dies?

That's a good negative utility. Do they have the choice to use the power or are they dragged into dream chat regardless?

 

[lokiduck]

That's a good negative utility. Do they have the choice to use the power or are they dragged into dream chat regardless?

I lean towards it happening regardless as again it fits canon but we could let the player choose to give them more control. Again it's like whether we should let him choose who he dreams with or not.

 

[Verelios]

I'm leaning towards role madness as I think it's more fun. If we keep Halua then we have to pick her over one of the other townies such as this mayor, Ursula, or Hans (our sweet and beautiful mailman)

I haven't really figured out how many shots most of our cops will get. I feel like Fisherman should get unlimited since he's getting weird hints anyways while other always helpful roles should be limited.

Hmmmmm, thinking about Hans I was reminded about gift givers (vendors) that give items. Messages do seem more mailman-ish though.

 

[lokiduck]

Hmmmmm, thinking about Hans I was reminded about gift givers (vendors) that give items. Messages do seem more mailman-ish though.

It could work either way honestly. If we have the mayor as a gossiper then maybe having Hans as an item giver might be good (flavor text can say that the player got a package). We'll just have to figure out what items those are.

Plus he might help scum on accident.

 

[Verelios]

I lean towards it happening regardless as again it fits canon but we could let the player choose to give them more control. Again it's like whether we should let him choose who he dreams with or not.

Yeah, that's true. I feel like a tradeoff is a good way to go. If they can choose not to use the power then they can't choose who they dream with, and if they can't choose when to use the power they can choose who dreams with them. Personally like the latter.

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah, that's true. I feel like a tradeoff is a good way to go. If they can choose not to use the power then they can't choose who they dream with, and if they can't choose when to use the power they can choose who dreams with them. Personally like the latter.

I agree the latter is better and we will go with that unless Pedro has a better idea.

 

[Verelios]

It could work either way honestly. If we have the mayor as a gossiper then maybe having Hans as an item giver might be good (flavor text can say that the player got a package). We'll just have to figure out what items those are.

Plus he might help scum on accident.

The only problem is I'm not even sure how we'd balance those items. Maybe @Pedro has an idea.

 

[lokiduck]

The only problem is I'm not even sure how we'd balance those items. Maybe @Pedro has an idea.

I agree on seeing what Pedro thinks but let's look at our roles currently.

Both sides have a JOAT and a RB so count those.

Town has:
Two negative roles (Beloved Princess and Outsider)
Two cops one weak unlimited Role cop and an probably limited shot Alignment cop.
1 BG that can die if she protects the king when he is targeted and a doctor
A Gossip that can die if his chat partner does.
A potential vigilante.

Neutral has:
A investigative anti-town role and a survivor

Scum has:
Role Cop
Strong man

What items we include might help balance this all out.

 

[lokiduck]

Updated the roster we just need a role for Weiss, Ursula, Jaykob, and Hulua and we have to choose between those three minor characters to decide who not to include.

 

[lokiduck]

also possible fake claims for scum I can think of so far:
Popola (since we'll use Devola for the role pm example) Admittedly she's a risky choice
Gideon
Which ever minor NPC we do not include
??? (Some random blacksmith in a town???)

Seriously we are using all of the named NPCs in this game based on what's on the wiki and the fisherman doesn't even have a Bob damn name XD

 

[Pedro]

I agree the latter is better and we will go with that unless Pedro has a better idea.

I dig this mix of a Gossip and a Hider! I also prefer the latter.

The only problem is I'm not even sure how we'd balance those items. Maybe @Pedro has an idea.

I personally think an Item Giver makes more sense in a game where not everyone is a PR, so it could give actions that are not in the game to other players. But here I don't think there's a good way to make the Item Giver interesting, as it will probably overlap with already existing roles.
The Mailman role fit him so well :c

---

Also I'm not thinking about shots for the PRs right now since that can (and most likely will) be adjusted during review/balancing.

 

[Verelios]

Haha

For safe names we'd probably need 5 just to be entirely sure.

Gideon is good
Popola is a big If with the flavor
Blacksmith seems to be a good choice

 

[Pedro]

Ursula could be Loved, didn't everyone write those fake letters so she wouldn't learn her partner had passed away? The town citizens care about her ;;;;;

 

[Verelios]

Ursula could be Loved, didn't everyone write those fake letters so she wouldn't learn her partner had passed away? The town citizens care about her ;;;;;

Yeah, they did, though all I could think of was when I'd be done ferrying for her =/

 

[lokiduck]

Okay then Hans can be a simple messenger and I like the idea of Ursula being loved.

Lol if we go with the blacksmith we will need to look up their name though since we have fisherman we might get away with it. We could do the same with one of the tavern owners.

Things I thought about while driving to my second job is that I am so using the twins has my avatar when the game starts to help with them being the flavor guides. The other was how some of the flavor dialogue will go for the role pms as I’m planning on playing it a bit tongue and cheek at least with the minor roles.

My proposal for the story is that during the night some random humans and shades were taken away to this weird void like place where you can’t really get a sense of what’s arou d you because you are in a fog. you know who you are but you can’t tell for sure who anyone else is. He shades see this as a chance to pick off some humans while the humans just want out but think he shades are behind it. The twins can be the helpful guides just wanting to keep things calm

 

[lokiduck]

For the role pms tho here are some Lines I have thought of

Hans: You May just be a mailman stuck on a foggy void, and you may not be able to tell who anyone else is, but you are going to do your job damnit so you will deliver these messages if it’s the last thing you do.

Imagine something similar for the fisherman except about fishing and maybe some jokes for the mayor and fisherman about how they can’t remember their names for some reason (because the Game runners can’t find them get it 8D)

 

[lokiduck]

I think I made one joke for the fisherman like: Yes seriously you get to play the fisherman. We really had the scrape the bottom of the barrel with this one (get it c:)

 

[lokiduck]

So with Ursula having power, that leaves us to choosing between Jaykob or Halua. Out of the two, Jaykob would be a more believable fake claim as even Hansel and Gretel can claim the both of them.

But Jaykob might give more options for powers since as discussed Halua fits protective roles unless we go into spoiler territory

 

[lokiduck]

Also what do we give Weiss XD

 

[lokiduck]

So with Ursula having power, that leaves us to choosing between Jaykob or Halua. Out of the two, Jaykob would be a more believable fake claim as even Hansel and Gretel can claim the both of them.

But Jaykob might give more options for powers since as discussed Halua fits protective roles unless we go into spoiler territory

Admittedly having one brother but not the other allows to scum to also slip in as he can pretend to match an actual townie

 

[lokiduck]

Bonus for having Jaykob as town. His pm mentions how he just wants to take care of his little bro, oh hey where did he wonder off to?

Or would it be a bit bastard to hint that his brother might be another townie when he’s a fake flavor role.

 

[lokiduck]

The only way I can think of figuring out the last powers is looking at what we got and seeing what we need both to hinder town or help it.

I feel like Jaykob might be a good way of hindering town though if we go into spoiler territory for Halua maybe she can too since she went berserk wanting to protect Emil.

Weiss is the biggest conundrum for me though as we need to give him a super nifty power (especially since he’s my favorite)

 

[Verelios]

Bonus for having Jaykob as town. His pm mentions how he just wants to take care of his little bro, oh hey where did he wonder off to?

Or would it be a bit bastard to hint that his brother might be another townie when he’s a fake flavor role.

I like adding that tidbit about his brother into flavor. It makes things more vague and teaches people not to rely so much on flavor text =).

 

[Verelios]

I'm drawing a blank on Weiss. Let's just start throwing things at the wall and see what looks good. Uh, so first, what's your impression of it, combat/personality wise?

I think I'd lean into the amnesiac part myself, and I'm pretty sure there's a relevant role for that somewhere.

 

[lokiduck]

I like adding that tidbit about his brother into flavor. It makes things more vague and teaches people not to rely so much on flavor text =).

That's true, plus it all depends on scum claiming to be him XD However that is like how I really want to fit in horrible puns where we can into the Role PMs just to torment the player because they can't quote it until they die XD

 

[lokiduck]

I'm drawing a blank on Weiss. Let's just start throwing things at the wall and see what looks good. Uh, so first, what's your impression of it, combat/personality wise?

I think I'd lean into the amnesiac part myself, and I'm pretty sure there's a relevant role for that somewhere.

I hadn't thought about him being an amnesiac how exactly would that work?

As for Weiss I mainly think of his abilities as being offensive based, that and his bone chilling insults and witty humor. XD

 

[lokiduck]

One thing of note is the variety of characters we have in the game.

Maybe one of our missing roles could be a cop that can detect whether someone is something kind of like roc.

Maybe we could have Jaykob be a hinderence for Beepy as he can tell he is a robot?

 

[lokiduck]

Over view of the varieties I'm talking about

Replicants (for the sake of the game to avoid spoilers they are just listed as human): Nier, Yonah, Fisherman, King, Fyra, Neun, Hans, Ursula, Jaykob, Sebastian?, Mayor
Replicants and Shade: Kaine
Genetically modified Human: Emil and Halua
Grimoire: Wise and Noir
Shade/Gestalt: Kalil, Roc, Shadowlord, Noir, Hansel, Gretel.
Robot: Beepy

If we have someone who can tell if someone is say a human or not, then that makes certain players suspicious even when they are town or neutral.

 

[lokiduck]

I had a few thoughts so here they all are (I'm trying not to post too much if you can't tell >>)

However, here are some additional thoughts I had. Sorry for doing these big blocks of questions, I just keep thinking of questions I have so feel free to take these questions at your own pace and not worry about answering them all right away.

1. Lol the blacksmiths and tavern keepers in Nier don't have names, so Let's hope town will believe scum when they claim such roles, though the fisherman can back them up. Another possible fake role is the mayor of Aerie since we have the mayor.

2. How will we have the fisherman work specifically? One idea I had was that he is trying to fish to catch one for a player and for some reason what he catches is a hint about that character. We'd have a variety of results that can happen and based on RNG will decide what that is.
Example of results:

1. You caught a normal fish! Yay! (No result also happens when role blocked?)
2. You caught a hint about someone else but you don't know who!
3. extremely vague hint
4. Mildly vague hint
5. much better hint
6. Straight up tells you the role

How the hints are presented I'm trying to figure out, I kind of like the idea of them actually being random thoughts the fisherman has while fishing for their player of choice such as "Why is sleeping all the time?" while more straight forward hints are straight up notes attached to fish and different pieces of trash. It's a weird dimension so anything is possible.

Also if he fishes while investigating himself He gets "That's a lot of fish you caught, you handsome devil."

4. One idea about the dreamer is that he has until EOD to send a message to us about who he wishes to talk with. If he does not it will be picked based on RNG.

5. Since Hans is supposed to be delivering messages it seems a bit weird that he writes them himself. This could be explained away that he is writing the mail because he has no actual mail to deliver, but I got another idea. What is Hans has mail that has been written by us and he just gets to choose who gets it (most of it can be random flavor that doesn't affect the game) without knowing it's contents, but he can also write his own letters to people.

6. I'm liking all the roles we have so far as I feel they are flavor appropriate and should be fun for most of the players who get them (out of the roles, Ursula and Yonah's are probably the least fun in that they are passive) but we definitely need to give Kaine a positive power to balance her negative one.

7. I kind of want to start hammering out some of the Role PMs, at least the general flavor info. Should I make a thread for that stuff? If there is a certain character/role you want to right yourself let me know I am 100% claiming the Fisherman though and maybe Roc. I may also take a crack at the Fisher's role hints mostly doing the ones for roles we have set in stone at this point.

8. In general how much flavor stuff do we want to include for like the change of phases, deaths, and even power uses? I kind of want to have unique deaths, but I don't want to go crazy about it (Spoiler warning: I will go crazy about it if left unchecked).

 

[lokiduck]

Fun fact, the work computer I have to use has banned ResetEra but it has not banned outermafia, so I can at least discuss things even if I can't access the forum mafia wiki or Nier one.

However, here are some additional thoughts I had. Sorry for doing these big blocks of questions, I just keep thinking of questions I have so feel free to take these questions at your own pace and not worry about answering them all right away.

1.Since our dreamer will be dreaming with another player (hence why he's like a hider in that he will die if they do), does that mean the other player will not be able to do any actions that night phase? If they are dreaming with the mayor then that means they are asleep right? Or does that give town too many roleblockers and we should allow the other dreamer to be able to still PM their ability? If we allow it, it could be explained as them waking up after the dream before night is over.

2. What if we made Weiss something like a motion detector where he can "sense" if someone did anything during the night phase? We have quite a few town powers that will have night powers (mailman, role fisher, alignment cop I assume, would he be able to detect the dreamer?) so that might be a nice hindrance to his ability being useful.

3. Speaking of the alignment cop, since he works as an adviser and is a public figure, I'm wondering if we should make it so he can only use his ability during the day phase. He can still PM us privately of course when he wants to preform a check, but then he can be given an option to public announce the results if someone turns out to be a rule breaker??? We could have the announcement made by either him or us to give him some privacy.

 

[Pedro]

good morning!

One thing of note is the variety of characters we have in the game.

Maybe one of our missing roles could be a cop that can detect whether someone is something kind of like roc.

Maybe we could have Jaykob be a hinderence for Beepy as he can tell he is a robot?

Town already has 2 cops, a third would be too much. But you could change the Fisherman to fish for this kind of stuff you're talking about, instead of roles.That way you could also remove the RNG element to it, he just fishes and gets if someone's a human or not.

 

[lokiduck]

good morning!



Town already has 2 cops, a third would be too much. But you could change the Fisherman to fish for this kind of stuff you're talking about, instead of roles.That way you could also remove the RNG element to it, he just fishes and gets if someone's a human or not.

Hmmm I kind of like the idea we have for the fisherman already, but I might consider it if we can't get our current idea to work. You are right that we have two many cops as it is, which is again what's making it hard to figure a role out for Weiss.

 

[Pedro]

1. Lol the blacksmiths and tavern keepers in Nier don't have names, so Let's hope town will believe scum when they claim such roles, though the fisherman can back them up. Another possible fake role is the mayor of Aerie since we have the mayor.

2. How will we have the fisherman work specifically? One idea I had was that he is trying to fish to catch one for a player and for some reason what he catches is a hint about that character. We'd have a variety of results that can happen and based on RNG will decide what that is.
Example of results:

1. You caught a normal fish! Yay! (No result also happens when role blocked?)
2. You caught a hint about someone else but you don't know who!
3. extremely vague hint
4. Mildly vague hint
5. much better hint
6. Straight up tells you the role

How the hints are presented I'm trying to figure out, I kind of like the idea of them actually being random thoughts the fisherman has while fishing for their player of choice such as "Why is sleeping all the time?" while more straight forward hints are straight up notes attached to fish and different pieces of trash. It's a weird dimension so anything is possible.

Also if he fishes while investigating himself He gets "That's a lot of fish you caught, you handsome devil."

4. One idea about the dreamer is that he has until EOD to send a message to us about who he wishes to talk with. If he does not it will be picked based on RNG.

5. Since Hans is supposed to be delivering messages it seems a bit weird that he writes them himself. This could be explained away that he is writing the mail because he has no actual mail to deliver, but I got another idea. What is Hans has mail that has been written by us and he just gets to choose who gets it (most of it can be random flavor that doesn't affect the game) without knowing it's contents, but he can also write his own letters to people.

6. I'm liking all the roles we have so far as I feel they are flavor appropriate and should be fun for most of the players who get them (out of the roles, Ursula and Yonah's are probably the least fun in that they are passive) but we definitely need to give Kaine a positive power to balance her negative one.

7. I kind of want to start hammering out some of the Role PMs, at least the general flavor info. Should I make a thread for that stuff? If there is a certain character/role you want to right yourself let me know I am 100% claiming the Fisherman though and maybe Roc. I may also take a crack at the Fisher's role hints mostly doing the ones for roles we have set in stone at this point.

8. In general how much flavor stuff do we want to include for like the change of phases, deaths, and even power uses? I kind of want to have unique deaths, but I don't want to go crazy about it (Spoiler warning: I will go crazy about it if left unchecked).

1. Those fake roles work!

2. See what I said about maybe changing the Fisherman.

4. Yup, that's how it's usually done with roles that *must* use their action every night. If they don't choose someone, it's picked randomly.

5. I think that makes the role too complicated, it's best to leave it simple. It's not bad if it's not 100% flavor-accurate that he's the one writing letters.

6. Yeah, I need to think about Kainé and Weiss.

7. I think it's too early to write role PMs. We're gonna change some roles still, and then once you get a team of reviewers so your game can be approved, even more changes will be made. You'd just end up rewriting most of what you wrote. What you could do, though, is put everything we have so far in a spreadsheet like this one found in the FAQ; reviewers only receive a game to be reviewed in that format.

8. Flavor that's supposed to be written in the game thread, once the game is already up, is not something decided during designing/reviewing; it's something you (general you) write on your own after that's all done. But you can feel free to flavor it up as much as you want xD

 

[Pedro]

1.Since our dreamer will be dreaming with another player (hence why he's like a hider in that he will die if they do), does that mean the other player will not be able to do any actions that night phase? If they are dreaming with the mayor then that means they are asleep right? Or does that give town too many roleblockers and we should allow the other dreamer to be able to still PM their ability? If we allow it, it could be explained as them waking up after the dream before night is over.

2. What if we made Weiss something like a motion detector where he can "sense" if someone did anything during the night phase? We have quite a few town powers that will have night powers (mailman, role fisher, alignment cop I assume, would he be able to detect the dreamer?) so that might be a nice hindrance to his ability being useful.

3. Speaking of the alignment cop, since he works as an adviser and is a public figure, I'm wondering if we should make it so he can only use his ability during the day phase. He can still PM us privately of course when he wants to preform a check, but then he can be given an option to public announce the results if someone turns out to be a rule breaker??? We could have the announcement made by either him or us to give him some privacy.

1. Like before, it's simpler if it can just create a gossip chat with the other person and that's about the interaction that's going to happen between the two. Adding roleblocking to it would make it too complex.

2. I like that, it's a fairly weak role that wouldn't give Town a big advantage.

3. Making a public announcement makes the role too powerful, since people would know it's a mod-confirmed message and thus true. A fun thing about the Cop is that others can fakeclaim it and pretend they got a message about someone. But we could make him a Day Cop instead of a Night one, that sounds alright.

 

[lokiduck]

1. Those fake roles work!

2. See what I said about maybe changing the Fisherman.

4. Yup, that's how it's usually done with roles that *must* use their action every night. If they don't choose someone, it's picked randomly.

5. I think that makes the role too complicated, it's best to leave it simple. It's not bad if it's not 100% flavor-accurate that he's the one writing letters.

6. Yeah, I need to think about Kainé and Weiss.

7. I think it's too early to write role PMs. We're gonna change some roles still, and then once you get a team of reviewers so your game can be approved, even more changes will be made. You'd just end up rewriting most of what you wrote. What you could do, though, is put everything we have so far in a spreadsheet like this one found in the FAQ; reviewers only receive a game to be reviewed in that format.

8. Flavor that's supposed to be written in the game thread, once the game is already up, is not something decided during designing/reviewing; it's something you (general you) write on your own after that's all done. But you can feel free to flavor it up as much as you want xD

Okay I'll start putting together the spread sheet, and will hold back on writing the PMs (even though I mostly want to write the flavor dialogue at the top >>)

2. Okay you are right about the fisherman being too complicated, I guess we can tweek him to make him more sensible. Do we just want to make him a human detector or is there a way we could simplify it so he can still be a role fisher (I'll be honestly I mostly want him to be the role cop so he can have the title.)

 

[Verelios]

Good Morning! Where are we at now?

 

[lokiduck]

1. Like before, it's simpler if it can just create a gossip chat with the other person and that's about the interaction that's going to happen between the two. Adding roleblocking to it would make it too complex.

2. I like that, it's a fairly weak role that wouldn't give Town a big advantage.

3. Making a public announcement makes the role too powerful, since people would know it's a mod-confirmed message and thus true. A fun thing about the Cop is that others can fakeclaim it and pretend they got a message about someone. But we could make him a Day Cop instead of a Night one, that sounds alright.

1. Okay then we will have just a simple gossip chat.
2. then I guess Weiss is our motion detector (we can even make it a joke about how he is normally so great and powerful but his amnesia has severely limited his power to only this.
3. okay then day alignment cop but with no announcing thing. we can always say in the flavor that they can announce things on their own time if they want to get more into the role. XD (and naturally they don't have to).

 

[lokiduck]

Good Morning! Where are we at now?

доброе утро! We are currently just tweeking some roles. We need to uncomplicate the fisherman and think Weiss should be a motion detector because we have a lot of night powers in town.

 

[Verelios]

1. Okay then we will have just a simple gossip chat.
2. then I guess Weiss is our motion detector (we can even make it a joke about how he is normally so great and powerful but his amnesia has severely limited his power to only this.
3. okay then day alignment cop but with no announcing thing. we can always say in the flavor that they can announce things on their own time if they want to get more into the role. XD (and naturally they don't have to).

1. Cool
2. That's an interesting twist. It's funny because he's generally just a self-important book at the beginning so that could make sense.
3. How will this work? I'm kind of iffy on day RC because then there's no way to RB them. It would only work if they were a weak cop or had a small X-shot.

 

[Verelios]

доброе утро! We are currently just tweeking some roles. We need to uncomplicate the fisherman and think Weiss should be a motion detector because we have a lot of night powers in town.

Oh, I did like the Fisherman's role but I can see where you and Pedro are coming from.

 

[lokiduck]

3. How will this work? I'm kind of iffy on day RC because then there's no way to RB them. It would only work if they were a weak cop or had a small X-shot.

I'm fine with giving him limited shots (explained because he only has so much power) plus we have Kaine to serve as kind of a foil for him even though her player is probably going to auto announce they are a miller type character.

 

[lokiduck]

Oh, I did like the Fisherman's role but I can see where you and Pedro are coming from.

I personally still feel we can make him a role fisher, but only if we make it more simplified.

Additionally how do we want Nier's JOAT powers to work?

 

[Verelios]

I personally still feel we can make him a role fisher, but only if we make it more simplified.

Hmmm, I'm reminded of ITA from Marvel Mafia. If we want to make it uncomplicated then we can just RNG where >50 they get the role name and <50 they get junk.

 

[Verelios]

I'm fine with giving him limited shots (explained because he only has so much power) plus we have Kaine to serve as kind of a foil for him even though her player is probably going to auto announce they are a miller type character.

Yeah, if they're limited then that seems fine.

 

[lokiduck]

Hmmm, I'm reminded of ITA from Marvel Mafia. If we want to make it uncomplicated then we can just RNG where >50 they get the role name and <50 they get junk.

That'd be reasonable. that way it's either Yay you got fish! (aka no result) or You got a weird message??? (role)

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah, if they're limited then that seems fine.

Admittedly keeping him as a night cop means he's another foil for Weiss, but I still feel him being day fits his flavor a bit more.

 

[Verelios]

I personally still feel we can make him a role fisher, but only if we make it more simplified.

Additionally how do we want Nier's JOAT powers to work?

I personally think that there should be just a few permutations possible for balance, and if they draw the word they get that power for the night. Maybe make it so he has only 4 or so pulls from a word bank so he's 4* shot over the course of the game.

It would contrast SL having all his JOAT powers already.

 

[Verelios]

That'd be reasonable. that way it's either Yay you got fish! (aka no result) or You got a weird message??? (role)

Haha, that's hilarious, yeah.

 

[Verelios]

Admittedly keeping him as a night cop means he's another foil for Weiss, but I still feel him being day fits his flavor a bit more.

It might be funny to add that he needs to be vigilant for any dangers against the king via flavor.

 

[lokiduck]

Okay I kind of like that idea having him be limited at first while SL is good to go right a way, speaking of since Weiss is the MD we should give SL a ninja kill as one of his abilities as a foil

 

[lokiduck]

It might be funny to add that he needs to be vigilant for any dangers against the king via flavor.

yep. XD

 

[Verelios]

Okay I kind of like that idea having him be limited at first while SL is good to go right a way, speaking of since Weiss is the MD we should give SL a ninja kill as one of his abilities as a foil

That sounds good!

 

[lokiduck]

Okay so right now we have two cops (limited alignment and role fisher) and a weak MD due to all the night powers. That sounds pretty good to me.

Additionally we have two communication roles (like LB3 lol) with a gossip that dies either from being NK or his partner being NK'd, and the mailman who writes his own mail XD

We have two protective in the form of a doctor and BG but the latter dies if she successfully protects the King. Additionally Emil is protected once and he's going to be an (I assume limited) roleblocker.

We have three passive roles two of which are negative.

 

[Verelios]

Yeah...now we have to think about Kaine's role. I'd say tracker but that doesn't seem exactly right.

I thought about Jailer too and it's too skewed to town that way. Hard to decide.

 

[lokiduck]

Actually could we maybe have three possible options for the Role Fisher aka 1. You got fish! 2. You got Junk! 3. You get a weird message (role)! That way it weakens his odds without it being too complicated.

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah...now we have to think about Kaine's role. I'd say tracker but that doesn't seem exactly right.

I thought about Jailer too and it's too skewed to town that way. Hard to decide.

Tracker would make sense if she was specifically hunting shades, but that's too similar to Weiss's MD and gives town another investigative role. I still like my idea of her have a vig shot maybe with a special condition like the King so she doesn't get it automatically.

 

[Verelios]

Actually could we maybe have three possible options for the Role Fisher aka 1. You got fish! 2. You got Junk! 3. You get a weird message (role)! That way it weakens his odds without it being too complicated.

Yeah, sounds good. Subdivisions would be weaker too.

 

[Verelios]

Tracker would make sense if she was specifically hunting shades, but that's too similar to Weiss's MD and gives town another investigative role. I still like my idea of her have a vig shot maybe with a special condition like the King so she doesn't get it automatically.

Hm, like what specifically?

 

[lokiduck]

For the King, does he get the shot if Fyra is killed in general, or does it only happen if she's killed by a Shade?

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah, sounds good. Subdivisions would be weaker too.

Yeah with three possible results he has a 33% shot of actually getting the role so that seems reasonable.

 

[lokiduck]

Hm, like what specifically?

That I haven't figured out. If we make it conditional then that severely limits how she gets it, kind of like what I'm humoring with the king right now.

The obvious option would be she gets it if Emil or Nier get NK'd, but that's too similar to the King. Mind you we could just make her a normal Vig an the King is basically the back up if his condition is met. In exchange for being a normal vig, she will always be scum read by Neun's shots (which makes sense because Neun would see Kaine as a rule breaker.

 

[Verelios]

For the King, does he get the shot if Fyra is killed in general, or does it only happen if she's killed by a Shade?

I feel like it makes more sense if she's killed in general, but we can make that condition of only when she's killed by a shade.

 

[Verelios]

That I haven't figured out. If we make it conditional then that severely limits how she gets it, kind of like what I'm humoring with the king right now.

The obvious option would be she gets it if Emil or Nier get NK'd, but that's too similar to the King. Mind you we could just make her a normal Vig an the King is basically the back up if his condition is met. In exchange for being a normal vig, she will always be scum read by Neun's shots (which makes sense because Neun would see Kaine as a rule breaker.

Hm. That might be good, especially since she's housing a shade. We could even base it off of her fog village, where every other day she gets to go out and hunt when the fog thins(shoot).

I do wonder if people are going to dropping too fast with that though.

 

[lokiduck]

Okay @Pedro I finished the spreadsheet of all the roles. The only one we are missing currently besides finding Kaine an additional role is Jaykob (or Halua if we go with her.)

Edit: the link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xayoW6GFff_776JKqc0Lz_-aX93pr32lYWL2xRbSFJ8/edit?usp=sharing

 

[lokiduck]

I feel like it makes more sense if she's killed in general, but we can make that condition of only when she's killed by a shade.

I was wondering if we wanted that stipulation but considering he's basically a vanilla the entire game if she doesn't die or gets killed by a non-shade then that seems a bit unfair to the player (I was a potential my first game but at least I also got to be a lover). So maybe we could just make it that he only gets it if she gets NK'd or dies protecting him? I'm fine with just having it be if she dies too as well.

Hm. That might be good, especially since she's housing a shade. We could even base it off of her fog village, where every other day she gets to go out and hunt when the fog thins(shoot).

I do wonder if people are going to dropping too fast with that though.

Yeah if we are going to make her a Vig. I think we need to limit how many shots she gets. We could make it on specific days she's allowed the shot like say (day 2, day 5, day 10) you know spread it out a bit, but I think I'd prefer her just being a 1 shot vig.

 

[lokiduck]

So for Jaykob (if we pick him) I think honestly we should give him a negative utility role. I was tempted to make it so that he can only vote for whoever is playing as Beepy once he learns of their identity (since his brother and him hate them), but that'd be pretty unfair to the player as it'd take their vote away. Same with if we make it so he can only hammer vote.

 

[Pedro]

Okay @Pedro I finished the spreadsheet of all the roles. The only one we are missing currently besides finding Kaine an additional role is Jaykob (or Halua if we go with her.)

Edit: the link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xayoW6GFff_776JKqc0Lz_-aX93pr32lYWL2xRbSFJ8/edit?usp=sharing

could you make it so I can edit it?

 

[lokiduck]

could you make it so I can edit it?

._. How do I do that?

Edit: nevermind, anyone who clicks the link can edit it.

 

[Pedro]

Giving the Fisherman 33% chance of getting something is not fun for the player, as it's likely that they won't get good info once. Leaving at 50% was okay to me.

And as for the King, him getting 1 Vig shot if Fyra dies no matter how is good already and doesn't need to be more specific. Again, try not to let the flavor dictate the design too much.

 

[lokiduck]

So can the dreamer be roleblocked? He can still be NK'd while dreaming (because he's just a sleeping dude) so I could possibly see him being able to be blocked.

 

[lokiduck]

Giving the Fisherman 33% chance of getting something is not fun for the player, as it's likely that they won't get good info once. Leaving at 50% was okay to me.

And as for the King, him getting 1 Vig shot if Fyra dies no matter how is good already and doesn't need to be more specific. Again, try not to let the flavor dictate the design too much.

Okay then on both accounts.

 

[Verelios]

So can the dreamer be roleblocked? He can still be NK'd while dreaming (because he's just a sleeping dude) so I could possibly see him being able to be blocked.

That's a good question. Admittedly, I've never seen that happen before, though maybe it has. What takes precedence @Pedro?

 

[Verelios]

Yeah if we are going to make her a Vig. I think we need to limit how many shots she gets. We could make it on specific days she's allowed the shot like say (day 2, day 5, day 10) you know spread it out a bit, but I think I'd prefer her just being a 1 shot vig.

1 shot vig honestly seems good.

 

[lokiduck]

1 shot vig honestly seems good.

Then if Pedro agrees, we will go with that.

 

[Verelios]

So for Jaykob (if we pick him) I think honestly we should give him a negative utility role. I was tempted to make it so that he can only vote for whoever is playing as Beepy once he learns of their identity (since his brother and him hate them), but that'd be pretty unfair to the player as it'd take their vote away. Same with if we make it so he can only hammer vote.

True, I never really liked messing with a players voting habits, beside maybe giving them doublevotes. And it just occured to me, would the ability to get a double vote to hammer once be a negative utility?

 

[lokiduck]

True, I never really liked messing with a players voting habits, beside maybe giving them doublevotes. And it just occured to me, would the ability to get a double vote to hammer once be a negative utility?

That actually wouldn't be too bad of an idea. Basically he gets 1 DV, but only if he's going to hammer. It limits when he can use it (though that would make it a nightmare for the mods since they have to make sure if his vote is valid or not) but helps town in a way possibly.

 

[Pedro]

thanks for editing the sheet, I'm working on it <3

Then if Pedro agrees, we will go with that.

That sounds alright!

That's a good question. Admittedly, I've never seen that happen before, though maybe it has. What takes precedence @Pedro?

Hiding happens before Roleblocking, so the Dreamer can't be RB'd.

---

Something is in the spreadsheet ("Every night shares a night chat with another player. If that player or him are NK'd he dies.") and I just want to clarify: The Hider *can't* die if they become the target of a NK and they're hiding behind someone. The only way the Hider can die during the night is if the person they're hiding behind gets NK'd. I'll edit the sheet to reflect this.

---

Another thing: Since we have 2 role cops in this game, I will suggest that we use common names for the roles in the setup (so use "day alignment cop" instead of "rule enforcer"). Role Cops are only useful if they can recognize the role that they learned about, so I imagine players receiving "rule enforcer", or "outsider" instead of "miller", we don't call that role Outsider in this community, and being confused. I think "Dreamer" is an exception, since it's an original role, but the other ones have more common names.

 

[Verelios]

That actually wouldn't be too bad of an idea. Basically he gets 1 DV, but only if he's going to hammer. It limits when he can use it (though that would make it a nightmare for the mods since they have to make sure if his vote is valid or not) but helps town in a way possibly.

Lord, can you imagine having to be on call for whenever they DV?

 

[lokiduck]

Lord, can you imagine having to be on call for whenever they DV?

Yeah... that's why I'm not sure this role might be a good idea, unless we have it that the player tells the mods ahead of time if he is planning on doing it... but even then.

Another idea is maybe making him a different kind of conditional DV, where he gets it if the right condition is met.

 

[lokiduck]

thanks for editing the sheet, I'm working on it <3



That sounds alright!



Hiding happens before Roleblocking, so the Dreamer can't be RB'd.

---

Something is in the spreadsheet ("Every night shares a night chat with another player. If that player or him are NK'd he dies.") and I just want to clarify: The Hider *can't* die if they become the target of a NK and they're hiding behind someone. The only way the Hider can die during the night is if the person they're hiding behind gets NK'd. I'll edit the sheet to reflect this.

---

Another thing: Since we have 2 role cops in this game, I will suggest that we use common names for the roles in the setup (so use "day alignment cop" instead of "rule enforcer"). Role Cops are only useful if they can recognize the role that they learned about, so I imagine players receiving "rule enforcer", or "dreamer" (or even "outsider" instead of "miller", we don't call that role Outsider in this community), and being confused.

1 and 2: Okay then in that case we'll make him a gossip hider and have all of the hider rules apply to him. That's fine in the end though as it means he can never be a NK target, which helps town unless his partner gets NK'd.

3. All right then, I can see what you mean and we'll just leave stuff like the rule enforcing and the dream aspect to the flavor text itself but keep the role name normal. However, I will keep insisting on us using the name Role Fisher. Funny enough in the LiS game currently going on, someone commented on it being weird that the miller there is not referred to as an outsider because that would seem more appropriate for the flavor. But if miller is the more common term, then we will go with it.

 

[lokiduck]

So I know the punishment for killing a beloved princess is that next day phase being skipped, but is that the punishment we want to have happen if Yonah is killed?

 

[Pedro]

Done, added a lot of little details to the sheet that'd be requested during review. All that's missing is the ablities for both joats, and how they get unlocked over time for the Town one, and Jakob's ability.

So I know the punishment for killing a beloved princess is that next day phase being skipped, but is that the punishment we want to have happen if Yonah is killed?

Hm, what do you have in mind?

 

[lokiduck]

Done, added a lot of little details to the sheet that'd be requested during review. All that's missing is the ablities for both joats, and how they get unlocked over time for the Town one, and Jakob's ability.



Hm, what do you have in mind?

SL JOAT abilities: Vere agrees with me that he should have a ninja kill as counter to Weiss, while the remaining abilities should be whatever can help scum without making them too overpowered.

Nier's: I'm not sure what abilities he should have as options to get. I know JOAT's come with a standard kit (on the mafia wiki I can't access at work) so do we want to just do that or have them be different? As for how they unlock I'm not really sure, but since this part was Vere's idea I'll let him take charge on that aspect.

Jaykob's power: I like the idea of him maybe having a Double vote but having it be conditional in some way. Having it be only for hammering seems like a mod nightmare though so what other ideas can we come up with?

Punishment for Yonah's death: i was kind of wondering if we wanted to do something like having everyone's powers deactivate (maybe even the mafia kill) for a day and night (or night and day if she is Lunched)? I want it to be a decent punishment that affects both sides but isn't too game breaking.

 

[Pedro]

Jaykob's power: I like the idea of him maybe having a Double vote but having it be conditional in some way. Having it be only for hammering seems like a mod nightmare though so what other ideas can we come up with?

Punishment for Yonah's death: i was kind of wondering if we wanted to do something like having everyone's powers deactivate (maybe even the mafia kill) for a day and night (or night and day if she is Lunched)? I want it to be a decent punishment that affects both sides but isn't too game breaking.

Thing is giving him a conditional doublevote will be a mod nightmare no matter what, as you'll need to pay attention to the game at all times to see if he doublevoted, and if so if it was under the right conditions. Because if it wasn't you'll need to get there immediately and say how that vote didn't count so it can't affect the ongoing discussion.
In fact, making it so he can only doublevote to hammer would be less of a nightmare than other options as it's very likely that hammering will only happen on the latter half of a day, so you don't have to be on the lookout for that during the first half.

---

I like her roleblocking everybody after dying, better than skipping a day. Though I wouldn't make her RB people during the day as well, as that would give a hint to the players that there are Day roles in place; I think it would be more fun if that was kept as a mystery.

 

[lokiduck]

So I went through all the guides and resources for making a fun but fair game, and looking at our roster I'm feeling pretty good about most of it. We have some negative roles but I feel they fit the game well enough and hopefully the players with them can still have fun.

If anything Yonah's player might just turn into another miller (announcing early so town and scum don't get fucked by them lunching her) or treating the role like another survivor role.

Kaine's at least gets a vig shot out of the deal.

 

[lokiduck]

Thing is giving him a conditional doublevote will be a mod nightmare no matter what, as you'll need to pay attention to the game at all times to see if he doublevoted, and if so if it was under the right conditions. Because if it wasn't you'll need to get there immediately and say how that vote didn't count so it can't affect the ongoing discussion.
In fact, making it so he can only doublevote to hammer would be less of a nightmare than other options as it's very likely that hammering will only happen on the latter half of a day, so you don't have to be on the lookout for that during the first half.

---

I like her roleblocking everybody after dying, better than skipping a day. Though I wouldn't make her RB people during the day as well, as that would give a hint to the players that there are Day roles in place; I think it would be more fun if that was kept as a mystery.

What if we make it so that like the King, he's a vanilla unless a condition is met that awards him one double vote. From that point on he has the DV and that makes it a bit more manageable. The only issue is I'm not what to make the condition for him getting it.

And if that doesn't work then let's just make it a hammer only DV.

Edit: could we make it so he has to tag one of the mods when he uses it, just so they can review whether it's valid?
---

Oh okay that sounds good then, and definitely seems like a way more fitting punishment. Could we announce publicly through flavor text that powers are blocked as a result, and just PM powered players (and message the scumchat) when they aren't anymore? That way they only know they have their power back, but not about others?

 

[Pedro]

Oh okay that sounds good then, and definitely seems like a way more fitting punishment. Could we announce publicly through flavor text that powers are blocked as a result, and just PM powered players (and message the scumchat) when they aren't anymore? That way they only know they have their power back, but not about others?

It will already be on her role PM when she flips for everyone to see, so a single announcement in the thread would be easier, "because yonah has died, all players will be roleblocked during the night".

 

[lokiduck]

It will already be on her role PM when she flips for everyone to see, so a single announcement in the thread would be easier, "because yonah has died, all players will be roleblocked during the night".

Oh okay that sounds good. If she's NK'd then we'll say it'll happen during the next night phase?

 

[Pedro]

What if we make it so that like the King, he's a vanilla unless a condition is met that awards him one double vote. From that point on he has the DV and that makes it a bit more manageable. The only issue is I'm not what to make the condition for him getting it.

And if that doesn't work then let's just make it a hammer only DV.

Edit: could we make it so he has to tag one of the mods when he uses it, just so they can review whether it's valid?

We can't assume that the mods will be online to review the vote, it might take hours until someone comes up :/ And the King and Nier are already triggered roles, so it's best to avoid adding a third one to keep things varied. Unless Vere thinks of another condition, we can keep it as a hammer-only doublevote.

Oh okay that sounds good. If she's NK'd then we'll say it'll happen during the next night phase?

Yep, "people are roleblocked on the next night phase after her death"!

 

[lokiduck]

We can't assume that the mods will be online to review the vote, it might take hours until someone comes up :/ And the King and Nier are already triggered roles, so it's best to avoid adding a third one to keep things varied. Unless Vere thinks of another condition, we can keep it as a hammer-only doublevote.


Yep, "people are roleblocked on the next night phase after her death"!

Okay then we will keep him as that. It should be a 1 time deal I assume?

 

[lokiduck]

Jaykob's power is basically a counter to Ursula's which makes things interesting but I can also see the player with that ability maybe telling town right before they use it just to make sure they are the one to hammer.

Also he can totally only DV when hammering because he's a blacksmith :P

 

[lokiduck]

Should one of SL's JOAT abilities be a 1 shot BP especially since we have two vigilantes on town?

Edit: Additional proposal: our Gossip Hider's role name be changed to "A Hider that Gossips" or "A Gossip that Hides"

 

[Verelios]

Should one of SL's JOAT abilities be a 1 shot BP especially since we have two vigilantes on town?

Edit: Additional proposal: our Gossip Hider's role name be changed to "A Hider that Gossips" or "A Gossip that Hides"

Hm, that should be fine. I'm somewhat worried about SL having BP with a RB teammate.

Edit: I like the Gossip names. I'd like to have dreams in there as a reference like 'Gossip in your dreams' but that doesn't say much about hiding. The second one sounds good in that case.

 

[lokiduck]

Hm, that should be fine. I'm somewhat worried about SL having BP with a RB teammate.

Edit: I like the Gossip names. I'd like to have dreams in there as a reference like 'Gossip in your dreams' but that doesn't say much about hiding. The second one sounds good in that case.

True... If we think it's too unfair to town then we can change it to something else or at least weaker.

I also realized that "A hider that gossips" fits the mayor of the Aerie better XD since they all hide when danger is around. But the ability is based around dreaming so it still works.

 

[Verelios]

We can't assume that the mods will be online to review the vote, it might take hours until someone comes up :/ And the King and Nier are already triggered roles, so it's best to avoid adding a third one to keep things varied. Unless Vere thinks of another condition, we can keep it as a hammer-only doublevote.


Yep, "people are roleblocked on the next night phase after her death"!

Yeah, funny enough I remember multiple games where DV were used at ungodly times with stretches of silence because mods couldn't affirm the command at the time. Seems just not fun for mods.

And I like Yonah RBing everyone after death. It's very story centric because the entire point of the struggle between Nier and SL is Yonah.

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah, funny enough I remember multiple games where DV were used at ungodly times with stretches of silence because mods couldn't affirm the command at the time. Seems just not fun for mods.

And I like Yonah RBing everyone after death. It's very story centric because the entire point of the struggle between Nier and SL is Yonah.

Yeah making it a hammer only DV seems better just because there is a higher chance a mod might be around to end the day if it actually does hammer the main train.