Mason Thread Seltzer? Seltzer.

Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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There will probably be a hard push on one or both of us at some point so being able to hard clear each other will be useful
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Totally. But IMO we shouldn't reveal ourselves until it seems like it's necessary. I'm divided on whether we should breadcrumb -- generally I hate doing it, but I could see it coming in useful if one of us dies.
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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My plan is to just strong town read you. Maybe claim lovers under pressure so we can see if we can bait a night kill on one of us. I would avoid it if we were actually lovers, but we’re basically just vanillas who can confirm another town so eh
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Sounds perfect. Also, we definitely shouldn't breadcrumb, because I've just realized that if one of use dies, we should just post in the thread at night that the other one was our partner!
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Oh that's a good idea actually. Got to make it through the next day phase, but yeah we can just confirm each other from beyond the grave lmao
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
exactly XD. I see both of us being more likely to be voted off that to be night killed, TBH, but whoever dies first will just pipe up as a ghost to confirm the other one.
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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I will absolutely claim if one of us is about to be voted out though. 15 player game doesn't get us a lot of wiggle room for miskills so we should do our best to avoid that. Won't do it till real late though, so hopefully we can avoid it.

I'm thinking maybe a three person scum team with these numbers?
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Also I'm pretty excited about this role. Feel like we have pretty different approaches to solving which can lead to us butting heads sometimes so knowing I can actually trust you and that we can bounce ideas off each other I think is going to be really helpful.
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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I'm excited too! Not just because I know you won't tunnel on me XD I think being able to openly discuss in a separate thread without having to defend yourself can be a really useful for town.
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Chuggernaut said:
I will absolutely claim if one of us is about to be voted out though. 15 player game doesn't get us a lot of wiggle room for miskills so we should do our best to avoid that. Won't do it till real late though, so hopefully we can avoid it.

I'm thinking maybe a three person scum team with these numbers?
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Three sounds right to me, four tops. Monkey talked a lot about this being a normal game outside of the open night chat, so I would tentatively guess no neutrals.
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
List of players for later copy/pasting, with you and me left off:

Sparks
EC
Stan
Malus
Mr Hedin
Sawneeks
Randomless
Fran
WhySoDevious
The Wizard
Launchpad
Verelios
FateShirou

I'm just going to take notes in here, instead of in a google doc like I usually do.

I don't know WSD or the Wizard very well. I'd say Launchpad and Fate are probably the players I would hope to be best able to to read, but not by much. Expecting D1 to be mostly discussion about how the night chat is going to pan out, before we all randomly jump on someone who says a slightly wrong thing and vote them out XD
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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not going to post this in the thread because i'll get jumped on for having a town read based on this, but I really like wizards response to the town core idea. Frans response seems in line him being kind of down on the idea in the last game we played
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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I feel like Fran wasn't around for most of the games that were successful with town cores, so it makes sense that he's down on the concept. I used to really hate the idea until I saw how it could work. What happened in Russian Doll? I never read the whole thing, did scum take charge of making a town core?

I'm glad you think that about the Wizard, because I thought so too, but then I thought maybe I was just flattered because he said he liked my tables. I'm very susceptible to being pocketed that way XD
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Not sure if I'll keep up this vote on EC, hopefully he'll just say he's town soon and I can move on. I feel like I always end up voting for him, don't want to be perceived as having a vendetta
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Russian Doll was weird. I was scum and threw the idea out and defended it, but no one really focused on it so it just kind of fell by the wayside. Eventually town BP Zeke took charge, ended up wiping out the scum team and then got hosed by the cult the next day because they wasted too much time on us
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Chuggernaut said:
Russian Doll was weird. I was scum and threw the idea out and defended it, but no one really focused on it so it just kind of fell by the wayside. Eventually town BP Zeke took charge, ended up wiping out the scum team and then got hosed by the cult the next day because they wasted too much time on us
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Sounds intense! And yeah, fits perfectly with what I was saying, town cores can work but nobody should get credit for suggesting/organizing the town core
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Hawthorn said:
Sounds intense! And yeah, fits perfectly with what I was saying, town cores can work but nobody should get credit for suggesting/organizing the town core
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Yeah, and i feel like as long as you go back and look at who's in the town core and what they're actually doing, they're pretty useful.

I dunno if EC is scum from this, but I get why you scum read him. I think his style of doing nothing and not explaining himself just reads as suss
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Chuggernaut said:
Yeah, and i feel like as long as you go back and look at who's in the town core and what they're actually doing, they're pretty useful.

I dunno if EC is scum from this, but I get why you scum read him. I think his style of doing nothing and not explaining himself just reads as suss
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This is true. I hate to fall into the trap of suspecting somebody based on style, but I would just totally kick myself if this time he is mafia and he gets away with it.

About Sparks, I tend to kind of read past his posts, since I think usually he's joking around/saying random things, but I could see it. Like if it's being talked about over there and he just picked up on/brought it over to the main thread. Tenuous but possible
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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going to pressure him a bit but it's probably going to be like squeezing water from a stone. might end up parking here if we have nothing better to look at
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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I might be overthinking this, but I don’t see scum coming out the gate and trying to link us like Neeks did. Feels way too aggressive especially when the games kind of slow. I’m pretty confident this is just town Neeks
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Good reminder of how sharp Sawneeks is, crazy that she saw that connection so early. Agree on the town lean.

I like Vere trying to get discussion moving, Fran's reply was good but very defensive.
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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I'm probably going to be forced to move off EC soon if people keep making a huge deal about it. I'll have the last laugh if he's mafia, but I also don't want to make the whole day about EC
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Unformed thoughts:

Sparks - who can tell?
EC - suspected on grounds of not saying he's town
Stan - mostly trying to engage with Sparks, no read
Malus - mostly joke posts. Malus always falls through the cracks for me. Need to remember to form a read of him.
Mr Hedin - mostly defending EC, which I think he would do town or scum, so no read
Sawneeks - mild town read based on her noticing our mason connection
Randomless - posts are almost all jokes. Very relaxed, from a player who can get very serious & would take being mafia seriously, I'd say tentative town read for now
Fran - seems mildly defensive, so I will keep watching him
WhySoDevious - can't remember any of his posts
The Wizard - liked for his attempts at getting a town core/serious discussion started
Launchpad - seems reasonable as always, ie no matter his alignment
Verelios - trying hard to move discussion along, mild town read
FateShirou - seems a bit paranoid and tense early on. Usually isn't like that until later. Grounds for suspicion?
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Fran is trending downwards slightly for me with his posts later. I get people being skeptical of Sparks, and I don’t know if I’m staying here either, but he came out strong against it, and that seems kind of weird.

Stan going after Sparks is something he would do regardless of lineup. Hopefully someone will scum read him for not saying much and he’ll come in and yell so I can get a town read there.

Hedin and Malus feel slightly good to me, but I’m keeping my eye on them.

Fate has felt kind of antsy so I’m trying not to read too far into that.

Devious feels more checked out as scum, so that might be something to look out for.

I feel like Random would be trying to blend better if he was scum, but I do want more from him
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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It would be awesome if Launch is scum and making up the town tell thing and also has no idea what it is
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
I've discovered the magic of making several posts in a row rather than one big post. May never go back.

Starting to feel a bit worried about how everyone's town reading Vere, just based on him pushing discussion, even though I'm one of those people. The overwhelming town read is making me more suspicious of him. This is one of the problems of the town core strategy.
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Hawthorn said:
I've discovered the magic of making several posts in a row rather than one big post. May never go back.

Starting to feel a bit worried about how everyone's town reading Vere, just based on him pushing discussion, even though I'm one of those people. The overwhelming town read is making me more suspicious of him. This is one of the problems of the town core strategy.
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Oh it's great. I love how off the cuff it feels.

I game watched for the last game and vere had a similar day 1 to what he's having now except he got scum read for it, so I dunno. Think there's always a player or two that jumps out as real townie in a game and scum will just roll with it
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
We've barely interacted outside of listing each other in town reads, but I don't care if people notice we're linked -- my policy with town who have a separate thread is, who cares if people figure it out? Good for them! Worst comes to worst mafia kills one of us (hope that doesn't happen though).

I'm pretty much putting my genuine thoughts in the main thread. Think it's a pretty substantive D1 altogether, lots of good conversations on different topics.

You reassured me about Vere ... he's now like the #1 most town read player in the game, wouldn't be surprised to see him get killed tonight
 
Chuggernaut

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Yeah I actually feel better about Vere after him and Wizard going at it. Felt like some nothing town vs town fight.

Talk to me about Fran a bit, because I’m starting to get the bad vibes there also
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
It just feels like any time anyone expresses suspicion or disagreement with Fran he fires back -- feels like when you're mafia and you're really concerned about a train starting on you, because you know trains can emerge out of anywhere on D1. Votes and suspicion on you that you would shrug off as town feel like more of a big deal. Those posts I quoted were part of it, but it's also a general vibe. Even the way he responded to my post saying he was defensive -- he didn't have anything to say about my reads on any other player, but he had to defend himself asap. I know he can be a bit combative, so it might just be that, but I get a weird feeling from it.
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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My first ever game had a scum Fran in it, and I feel like he’s giving off a similar vibe here, so I think I might agree with this. I’m used to Fran being a lot more laid back as town. Here it feels like he’s aggressively going after cases he has an issue with and it just feels like he’s trying to steer town in a certain direction
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Yeah, that was my memory too, but I wasn't sure of it. I haven't played with him too many times. Let's keep an eye on him.

I can see why Hedin made the distinction he did between Ty and Malus, but I also don't have any reason to town read him, so I think it makes sense that you're putting pressure on him -- did anything else about him raise your suspicions?
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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I don't see it on that issue, but I have 0 solid read on him either. One of those players it's tough to get a handle on.

Not sure I've ever played with Ty before. Do you know him? Is this type of catch-up normal for him?
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Malus also had a legitimate point about Fran calling his own scum read on Malus "bold"
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Ty is one of those players who I don’t really have a great grasp on meta wise so I’m not really using that here
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Ty is being so crazy, seemingly intentionally, that I feel like there's going to be a swing in his direction and it's going to turn out that he's town. I don't think mafia would act like this at EoD
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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I'll be in if you try that. would at least get us out of the rut of "which of these less active/more erratic posters shall we find a reason to scum read"? I know I just said I would switch to fate, but whatever, I meant over malus or Ty
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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I definitely thought the day ended in half an hour until Monkey posted that vote count XD
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Also, if Fran were to flip scum, that would pretty much clear Sawneeks in my mind, based on that early "pretty much town" read she gave him, do not see her writing that about a scummate. But that's putting the cart before the horse
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Oh right, I can see that. Yeah, scum might make that connection, but would they announce it? Probably not.

Not sure what to think about Launch getting so on board with our anti-Fran platform. I'd love to town read him, but feels dangerous
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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I’m kind of feeling town on Launch from this? Feel like scum Launch would have just chilled out here instead of hopping on team kill Fran
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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It's 5 each Fran or Malus, Ty's on Sawneeks and will come to Malus. Stan is probably asleep. The only other off wagon voters are the Wizard and EC, not counting Fran's attempt to start a train on you. I guess they'll be the deciding votes.
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Okay hear me out. if Malus flips town I’m considering claiming. How Launch came to the same conclusion about Fran that we were hitting felt really organic. Which means that wagon is probably pure. I don’t think scum just hard avoids Fran like that
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Expected result on malus :-(

Walk me through your claim idea a little more? You think the Fran wagon was all town?
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Hawthorn said:
Expected result on malus :-(

Walk me through your claim idea a little more? You think the Fran wagon was all town?
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Yeah, between us, Launch, and Malus. It’s looking real pure. I think we’re straight up onto something with Fran, but it’s going to be an absolute slog getting town to see it that way. Think it might be best to just try selling them with this.
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Would they all avoid the the wagon if it seemed like he was going down though? I would expect to see at least one bus vote in that situation.

I'm not anti-claim necessarily btw, just thinking it out
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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ATP, one of those who can be counted on to root for town when he's not playing, kind of agrees with us about Fran, point in our favor.

Sparks and Fate were both on the Fran vote at different times. Sparks's votes all seem essentially random. Fate wasn't part of the train, he had his vote there early on then removed it as soon as the train took off. Those were the only other Fran voters.

I want to agree with you but I don't want to be in a tunnel
 
Chuggernaut

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I feel like it going down would be a good reason not to avoid it? Like them you can hop on and not worry about being tied to Malus
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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That’s fine! Talking it out is good. Didn’t even really consider Sparks. He’s kind of just all over the place
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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If Fran ends up being scum, I think Random is a good contender to look at next. I don’t see Fate being scum with how he handled that EoD. If he’s partners with Fran they sure were busing each other a lot, and if he’s scum without him, then leaving the vote when it finally became viable is weird
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Chuggernaut said:
I feel like it going down would be a good reason not to avoid it? Like them you can hop on and not worry about being tied to Malus
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No, I mean when it looked like Fran was going to be one of the main wagons. Normally you wouldn't expect to see scum stack on an opposing wagon to save one of their own (though, I've been saying I think they should do that more often, because of how everybody assumes they wouldn't stack).

If we were taking Fran as mafia and I had to pick one of the votes on him to be a bus vote, it would be fate. I could also see him removing it in a moment of nerves then not wanting to put it back on. He is super nervous as mafia. So, don't agree about the progression there, but it doesn't matter unless we have info about Fran anyway.
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Advantage of claiming:
-We add data to the analysis of the Fran train
-We're possibly able to push Fran to be voted off, which is good because we seem to both be in a tunnel on him
-We defend ourselves, saving time that could be wasted with people building cases on us

Disadvantages:
-Mafia maybe kills one of us, especially if we claim during the night phase
-We maybe help scum narrow down the cop/doctor by removing ourselves from the potential pool

That's about what I can think of. I think masons have claimed earlier in other games too. I would be willing to try it. Maybe see a bit how the night chat seems to be going? See if the tide turns towards Fran without a claim?
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Hawthorn said:
No, I mean when it looked like Fran was going to be one of the main wagons. Normally you wouldn't expect to see scum stack on an opposing wagon to save one of their own (though, I've been saying I think they should do that more often, because of how everybody assumes they wouldn't stack).

If we were taking Fran as mafia and I had to pick one of the votes on him to be a bus vote, it would be fate. I could also see him removing it in a moment of nerves then not wanting to put it back on. He is super nervous as mafia. So, don't agree about the progression there, but it doesn't matter unless we have info about Fran anyway.
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Yeah that’s something we could come back too, but we probably need to flip Fran first. I think it could be a bus now that I’m thinking about it. Did seem like Fran was planning on moving his vote there
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Hawthorn said:
Advantage of claiming:
-We add data to the analysis of the Fran train
-We're possibly able to push Fran to be voted off, which is good because we seem to both be in a tunnel on him
-We defend ourselves, saving time that could be wasted with people building cases on us

Disadvantages:
-Mafia maybe kills one of us, especially if we claim during the night phase
-We maybe help scum narrow down the cop/doctor by removing ourselves from the potential pool

That's about what I can think of. I think masons have claimed earlier in other games too. I would be willing to try it. Maybe see a bit how the night chat seems to be going? See if the tide turns towards Fran without a claim?
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Yeah I’m okay with this. Let’s wait a bit and see how it plays out. If it’s still dead like this in a couple of hours I’ll say let’s go for it. We could claim lovers to make us look a bit more tempting tonight if we want to try to buy the cop and doctor some time.
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Also, I might not be around in a couple hours -- if you feel like going for it without me, I'm ok with that, but might not be around to confirm for a while, so just let them know
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

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Same back to you! Hoping neither of us die!

Monkey, my post was exactly 50 words :-D
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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I know you’re town reading him, but if I eat it tonight, keep an eye on Random. I know he’s trying not to live in the thread this game, but he’s still off and doesn’t feel like his town self at all to me. I was really surprised to see him just go with the flow yesterday
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
I'll keep an eye for sure. He feels town to me, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

What are you expecting for the kill? I'd say 40% chance neither of us, 40% chance you, 20% chance me
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Feel like there’s no way we can tell though. The fun thing about claiming like this is we probably made scum have to go real WIFOM over this kill.
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Okay that read list from Random is whack, and I don't buy that coming from him. This is my soul read Thorny, I'm pretty sure he's scum
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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I promise i'll shut up about this, but just to have this out there.

Being all "yeah that is a bad look for Fran" and then moving him to light town, isn't reevaluating. It's just the appearance of reevaluating.

Also there's just no reason you should be scum reading Fate and not Fran at this stage.

Like if it's scum Fate and town Fran, Fate sees the votes starting up on someone who scum reads him while he also has a decent amount of votes and he decides the best move is to move his vote to another townie instead? There's no reason for that, and it's just risky for no reason. There's a case for busing, but Fran needs to be flipped first if that's the road you're going down
 
Chuggernaut

Chuggernaut

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Ty brought up Fran not following up on him as a scum read and that’s actually a pretty good point. As soon as Fran gets pressured he’s no longer giving reads and scum hunting. He just switches into hard self preservation mode
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
I can see it about Rando, definitely. I promise I'll follow up if you die.

And feeling more and more convinced about Fran. Is it a tunnel if we both agree? A folie a deux?
 
Hawthorn

Hawthorn

I'll explain my reasons later
Whoever's dead probably doesn't even know it.

I'd really like to see at least one post this game from somebody making a cop claim after actions lock or something, only for mafia to seethe because they can't change the kill target

Let's take Fran down tomorrow -- I'm now fully convinced. Even if one of us dies, I bet we can get there & I bet we're right!
 
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