2+2 Is not necessarily 4

[lokiduck]

Writing the updated PM for Kirk to explain the powers.

Question. How many commute shots should Kirk have?

Additionally. If the Alignment cop checks Kirk the night he switches Kirks, will he come up as town still?

The investigate would go after the switch so in my opinion, he only comes up as town if he switches to Kelvin Kirk the night he gets checked. If he switches to OS Kirk he'll be listed as not town.

 

[Alexem]

Kirk probably doesn't need too many commute shots - I suspect that if he has more than a couple, he'll probably try and spend as much time playing defensively as he can instead of sticking his neck out.

Processing the Kirk swap before a potential alignment check seems like the fairer option to me if Kirk does so by command, but what would happen if he let it happen automatically? In theory, Kirk could use two actions on consecutive nights, then get swapped automatically and use an action from his other set on the third night. Assuming that Kirk can use a move and swap styles in the same night that way, how would that affect the order of actions?

 

[lokiduck]

Kirk probably doesn't need too many commute shots - I suspect that if he has more than a couple, he'll probably try and spend as much time playing defensively as he can instead of sticking his neck out.

Processing the Kirk swap before a potential alignment check seems like the fairer option to me if Kirk does so by command, but what would happen if he let it happen automatically? In theory, Kirk could use two actions on consecutive nights, then get swapped automatically and use an action from his other set on the third night. Assuming that Kirk can use a move and swap styles in the same night that way, how would that affect the order of actions?

Yeah probably best to only give him 2 max. He needs some protection but too many shots promotes just being defensive.

meat I figure kirk swap counts as a miscellaneous action which on the action order list goes before investigative.

As for the whole him being able use a action and letting the game runners just swap him automatically, I’m of the opinion that his swapping will cancel out his action so he can’t abuse the loop hole.

player goes os kirk
N1 stun
N2 kill
N3 switches
N4 commute
N5 switches
N6 cutting
N7 switches

basically with the system the way it is he has to swap which means he can’t use an action at a max of every 3 days. It also forces his player to decide which version he starts out with to plan when he has to switch tho he can control that by switching earlier than the max required day.

so we should just say that his action will not happen if he tries and use one on a night he has to switch

 

[Alexem]

Yep, definitely put a warning in the role PM that failure to swap manually will mean that he can't use an action when he's swapped automatically. (Would it also be worth sending a 'you're swapping tonight, any commands will be ignored' PM on a forced swap night?)

 

[lokiduck]

Yep, definitely put a warning in the role PM that failure to swap manually will mean that he can't use an action when he's swapped automatically. (Would it also be worth sending a 'you're swapping tonight, any commands will be ignored' PM on a forced swap night?)

That is probably a good idea at least the first time it happens

 

[Verelios]

@Alexem all the pms are done =D

 

[lokiduck]

Soooo Question about bond. Is he a day power? I assume he is as most captains are. But basically if his target is a MS, he will be notified and then during the night he can pick their target? That seems a bit weird lol. Plus it makes him a flavor cop a bit.

Suggestion 1: Make it a night power and he has to specify two things, the target and the person he wants the power used on. If it's a mary Sue he's targeting then their power will be auto redirected to the target without the MS knowing.

Suggestion 2: Make it a day power. He has to specify target and who they targeting. Then at night if the target is a MS, they will be commanded to use their power on target B or be RB'd. Issue with this version is it confirms his power.

Personally i like 1. Makes him less a flavor cop as he won't know if it worked or not and makes him way less confirmable.

 

[lokiduck]

Verey ;) Disappointed you didn't include any references to sand in Anakin's PM.

Additionally since the game isn't bastard I'm pretty sure we need to tell Anakin that he'll turn into Darth Vader if voted out, but I'll let Alexem give input on this.

 

[lokiduck]

LOL I thought the command for Annie was something like "the sun will come out tomorrow"

Additionally the phrasing on the command what happens is a bit confusing.

 

[lokiduck]

We need to figure out how many commuter shots Kirk has.

 

[Alexem]

Thanks for the ping - will go over the PMs later.

 

[Alexem]

I've gone through the drafts now. No problems with the flavour, everything looks fun on that front. I see that Loki's come up with a lot of the same thoughts as myself with regards to role behaviour.

Something that I don't think has come up so far is whether or not Kirito should have a limit to how many commuter shots he can use. Typically it wouldn't matter too much as it's not often that you'd see more than three even night phases, but this game does have some potential to run on a bit if scum are unlucky with their kills getting through. (Wondie would help on that front, of course, but they can still only strong kill every other night and it depends on how long she stays in the game.) If Kirito can commute on every other night, it's possible - at least on paper - that Kirito, Bella, Kelvin Kirk (or whoever OG Kirk targets with heat mode) and the whole scum team (if Rey uses her move) could be out of play at the same time. Would it be better to limit Kirito to a couple of shots and make him decide when to use them? On that note:

We need to figure out how many commuter shots Kirk has.

I still think that two shots sounds about right. Even with the swapping restriction, Kirk should still have to think about when to commute, especially if Kirito's at it as well.

Soooo Question about bond. Is he a day power? I assume he is as most captains are. But basically if his target is a MS, he will be notified and then during the night he can pick their target? That seems a bit weird lol. Plus it makes him a flavor cop a bit.

Suggestion 1: Make it a night power and he has to specify two things, the target and the person he wants the power used on. If it's a mary Sue he's targeting then their power will be auto redirected to the target without the MS knowing.

Suggestion 2: Make it a day power. He has to specify target and who they targeting. Then at night if the target is a MS, they will be commanded to use their power on target B or be RB'd. Issue with this version is it confirms his power.

Personally i like 1. Makes him less a flavor cop as he won't know if it worked or not and makes him way less confirmable.

Option two would be closer to the 'conventional' captain who would know the roles that they can command, but not who has them. I think option one lines up with Vere's plan for how Bond would work, and allows for the jeopardy of Bond picking a GS or an MS with a used-up or passive role. I agree that having Bond pick who their chosen player should target would make things quicker, otherwise there's going to be a time lag between checking if the target is valid and asking for who they should target - it works if Bond moves straight away, but would get complicated if they wait. Would a suitable command for Bond be something along the lines of:
Bond. James Bond: <CHOICE> aimed at <TARGET>
Also, what happens if Bond picks a scum MS? It's a moot point if he picks Rey, but would he be able to command the strong kill if he picks Wonder Woman? Kim wouldn't really work for him, either, as Bond can't specify which JOAT action to use.

One other point regarding Bond - if his chosen player isn't asked whether they want to comply or refuse, would they be told who they targeted when they get their results at the end of the night, or would that depend on Bond claiming?

LOL I thought the command for Annie was something like "the sun will come out tomorrow"

Additionally the phrasing on the command what happens is a bit confusing.

My understanding of Annie's role is that it's passive and she's at the will of the RNG unless she's blocked or removed from the game.

Additionally since the game isn't bastard I'm pretty sure we need to tell Anakin that he'll turn into Darth Vader if voted out, but I'll let Alexem give input on this.

If Han's got tailor shots, then this game is most definitely bastard. That said, though, would keeping Anakin in the dark about the possibility of getting stumped be going too far?

 

[lokiduck]

I've gone through the drafts now. No problems with the flavour, everything looks fun on that front. I see that Loki's come up with a lot of the same thoughts as myself with regards to role behaviour.

Something that I don't think has come up so far is whether or not Kirito should have a limit to how many commuter shots he can use. Typically it wouldn't matter too much as it's not often that you'd see more than three even night phases, but this game does have some potential to run on a bit if scum are unlucky with their kills getting through. (Wondie would help on that front, of course, but they can still only strong kill every other night and it depends on how long she stays in the game.) If Kirito can commute on every other night, it's possible - at least on paper - that Kirito, Bella, Kelvin Kirk (or whoever OG Kirk targets with heat mode) and the whole scum team (if Rey uses her move) could be out of play at the same time. Would it be better to limit Kirito to a couple of shots and make him decide when to use them? On that note:


I still think that two shots sounds about right. Even with the swapping restriction, Kirk should still have to think about when to commute, especially if Kirito's at it as well.


Option two would be closer to the 'conventional' captain who would know the roles that they can command, but not who has them. I think option one lines up with Vere's plan for how Bond would work, and allows for the jeopardy of Bond picking a GS or an MS with a used-up or passive role. I agree that having Bond pick who their chosen player should target would make things quicker, otherwise there's going to be a time lag between checking if the target is valid and asking for who they should target - it works if Bond moves straight away, but would get complicated if they wait. Would a suitable command for Bond be something along the lines of:
Bond. James Bond: <CHOICE> aimed at <TARGET>
Also, what happens if Bond picks a scum MS? It's a moot point if he picks Rey, but would he be able to command the strong kill if he picks Wonder Woman? Kim wouldn't really work for him, either, as Bond can't specify which JOAT action to use.

One other point regarding Bond - if his chosen player isn't asked whether they want to comply or refuse, would they be told who they targeted when they get their results at the end of the night, or would that depend on Bond claiming?


My understanding of Annie's role is that it's passive and she's at the will of the RNG unless she's blocked or removed from the game.


If Han's got tailor shots, then this game is most definitely bastard. That said, though, would keeping Anakin in the dark about the possibility of getting stumped be going too far?

Yeah option one works the best for Bond.
He should def be able to command scum MS just because it partly balances the role lol.

trueeee I guess the game can count as bastard light. I don’t want players getting over excited tho so maybe Unusual Rolemadness would be okay still? That was the distinction we thought would be better for Star Trek which had Uber scum lol

 

[lokiduck]

On second thought better to just go with bastard lol better to be safe than sorry

 

[Alexem]

I was planning to label it as unusual role madness with some bastard elements - that shows that there's a bit of bastardry involved, but it's not the main focus of the game.

Something that I forgot to mention earlier - did you want to give the scum team any safety names? Given the names they've already got, they should be able to pass them off as town, but perhaps you have some in mind.

 

[Verelios]

Soooo Question about bond. Is he a day power? I assume he is as most captains are. But basically if his target is a MS, he will be notified and then during the night he can pick their target? That seems a bit weird lol. Plus it makes him a flavor cop a bit.

Suggestion 1: Make it a night power and he has to specify two things, the target and the person he wants the power used on. If it's a mary Sue he's targeting then their power will be auto redirected to the target without the MS knowing.

Suggestion 2: Make it a day power. He has to specify target and who they targeting. Then at night if the target is a MS, they will be commanded to use their power on target B or be RB'd. Issue with this version is it confirms his power.

Personally i like 1. Makes him less a flavor cop as he won't know if it worked or not and makes him way less confirmable.

I've gone through the drafts now. No problems with the flavour, everything looks fun on that front. I see that Loki's come up with a lot of the same thoughts as myself with regards to role behaviour.

Something that I don't think has come up so far is whether or not Kirito should have a limit to how many commuter shots he can use. Typically it wouldn't matter too much as it's not often that you'd see more than three even night phases, but this game does have some potential to run on a bit if scum are unlucky with their kills getting through. (Wondie would help on that front, of course, but they can still only strong kill every other night and it depends on how long she stays in the game.) If Kirito can commute on every other night, it's possible - at least on paper - that Kirito, Bella, Kelvin Kirk (or whoever OG Kirk targets with heat mode) and the whole scum team (if Rey uses her move) could be out of play at the same time. Would it be better to limit Kirito to a couple of shots and make him decide when to use them? On that note:


I still think that two shots sounds about right. Even with the swapping restriction, Kirk should still have to think about when to commute, especially if Kirito's at it as well.


Option two would be closer to the 'conventional' captain who would know the roles that they can command, but not who has them. I think option one lines up with Vere's plan for how Bond would work, and allows for the jeopardy of Bond picking a GS or an MS with a used-up or passive role. I agree that having Bond pick who their chosen player should target would make things quicker, otherwise there's going to be a time lag between checking if the target is valid and asking for who they should target - it works if Bond moves straight away, but would get complicated if they wait. Would a suitable command for Bond be something along the lines of:
Bond. James Bond: <CHOICE> aimed at <TARGET>
Also, what happens if Bond picks a scum MS? It's a moot point if he picks Rey, but would he be able to command the strong kill if he picks Wonder Woman? Kim wouldn't really work for him, either, as Bond can't specify which JOAT action to use.

One other point regarding Bond - if his chosen player isn't asked whether they want to comply or refuse, would they be told who they targeted when they get their results at the end of the night, or would that depend on Bond claiming?


My understanding of Annie's role is that it's passive and she's at the will of the RNG unless she's blocked or removed from the game.


If Han's got tailor shots, then this game is most definitely bastard. That said, though, would keeping Anakin in the dark about the possibility of getting stumped be going too far?

You both make a good point on Bond's captain ability. My initial idea worked like Loki's 1 so I think having the command be : Choice, Target at night is a great way to square that.

Hmmm, as for Anakin, I kind of agree that not telling them is a bit bastard. We'll move to telling him about it then.

 

[Verelios]

I was planning to label it as unusual role madness with some bastard elements - that shows that there's a bit of bastardry involved, but it's not the main focus of the game.

Something that I forgot to mention earlier - did you want to give the scum team any safety names? Given the names they've already got, they should be able to pass them off as town, but perhaps you have some in mind.

I think the current names are good since you can't really say they'd be totally out of place.

We could always figure out a quick 5 fake names if necessary.

 

[Verelios]

LOL I thought the command for Annie was something like "the sun will come out tomorrow"

Additionally the phrasing on the command what happens is a bit confusing.

Hm. Okay, so does everyone think Anne should be a passive or active PR? If it's active then I'll just give them the command line, but still no info on what will happen. I'll let them decide if they want to wish in that instance.

I think 2 or 3 commuter shots for Kirk is okay. As for Kirito, I gave him 3 since D6 is pretty much endgame anyway and won't effect much.

 

[Verelios]

I've gone through the drafts now. No problems with the flavour, everything looks fun on that front. I see that Loki's come up with a lot of the same thoughts as myself with regards to role behaviour.

Something that I don't think has come up so far is whether or not Kirito should have a limit to how many commuter shots he can use. Typically it wouldn't matter too much as it's not often that you'd see more than three even night phases, but this game does have some potential to run on a bit if scum are unlucky with their kills getting through. (Wondie would help on that front, of course, but they can still only strong kill every other night and it depends on how long she stays in the game.) If Kirito can commute on every other night, it's possible - at least on paper - that Kirito, Bella, Kelvin Kirk (or whoever OG Kirk targets with heat mode) and the whole scum team (if Rey uses her move) could be out of play at the same time. Would it be better to limit Kirito to a couple of shots and make him decide when to use them? On that note:


I still think that two shots sounds about right. Even with the swapping restriction, Kirk should still have to think about when to commute, especially if Kirito's at it as well.


Option two would be closer to the 'conventional' captain who would know the roles that they can command, but not who has them. I think option one lines up with Vere's plan for how Bond would work, and allows for the jeopardy of Bond picking a GS or an MS with a used-up or passive role. I agree that having Bond pick who their chosen player should target would make things quicker, otherwise there's going to be a time lag between checking if the target is valid and asking for who they should target - it works if Bond moves straight away, but would get complicated if they wait. Would a suitable command for Bond be something along the lines of:
Bond. James Bond: <CHOICE> aimed at <TARGET>
Also, what happens if Bond picks a scum MS? It's a moot point if he picks Rey, but would he be able to command the strong kill if he picks Wonder Woman? Kim wouldn't really work for him, either, as Bond can't specify which JOAT action to use.

One other point regarding Bond - if his chosen player isn't asked whether they want to comply or refuse, would they be told who they targeted when they get their results at the end of the night, or would that depend on Bond claiming?

So, how I see this happening is that Bond can redirect MS's and they don't get told they're being redirected or a choice to refuse. This includes scum like WW and KP. The offside is that Bond doesn't get any of the result information, those all go the MSs. As for if they're told who they targeted...hm, I'm unsure on this one. Group vote!

 

[lokiduck]

I was planning to label it as unusual role madness with some bastard elements - that shows that there's a bit of bastardry involved, but it's not the main focus of the game.

Something that I forgot to mention earlier - did you want to give the scum team any safety names? Given the names they've already got, they should be able to pass them off as town, but perhaps you have some in mind.

Unusual Rolemadness with some bastard is a perfect classification. In that case @Verelios we don't have to tell Anakin.

I'd say we'd label it officially as

Unusual Rolemadness*

*Has some bastard elements.

Hm. Okay, so does everyone think Anne should be a passive or active PR? If it's active then I'll just give them the command line, but still no info on what will happen. I'll let them decide if they want to wish in that instance.

I think 2 or 3 commuter shots for Kirk is okay. As for Kirito, I gave him 3 since D6 is pretty much endgame anyway and won't effect much.

I'm debating this from a balancing perspective LOL. Command gives the player more control over the power, while passive is just whatever.

Additionally is it unlimited? XD

Either case Stil feel like "the Sun'll come out tomorrow!" works as a passive or command.

So, how I see this happening is that Bond can redirect MS's and they don't get told they're being redirected or a choice to refuse. This includes scum like WW and KP. The offside is that Bond doesn't get any of the result information, those all go the MSs. As for if they're told who they targeted...hm, I'm unsure on this one. Group vote!

Most redirected peeps don't know they are redirected so I personally think they shouldn't be told! That and it confirms him less especially if people don't report all their night actions.

 

[lokiduck]

Additionally we have had a captain twice in our games. If he claims it and it's confirmable in that people are told what happened, he'll get auto town read for it.

Having it not be this way means people can still scum read him potentially.

 

[Verelios]

Unusual Rolemadness with some bastard is a perfect classification. In that case @Verelios we don't have to tell Anakin.

I'd say we'd label it officially as

Unusual Rolemadness*

*Has some bastard elements.

I like the label =D. Also changed Vader's stump posting to only the day after he was killed after reading your posts. I like the symmetry.

I'm debating this from a balancing perspective LOL. Command gives the player more control over the power, while passive is just whatever.

Additionally is it unlimited? XD

Balancing...this is a good point. How does everyone feel about it then, balance wise? It's unlimited for now but also passive meaning it activates every night. If we make it limited and active then are you thinking 3 shots?

Either case Stil feel like "the Sun'll come out tomorrow!" works as a passive or command.

I like this a lot better so I changed the command lol.

Most redirected peeps don't know they are redirected so I personally think they shouldn't be told! That and it confirms him less especially if people don't report all their night actions.

True, so Bond doesn't get results or know if his action went through and his targets aren't told they've been redirected. Sounds good.

 

[lokiduck]

Glad you like the label and yeah that sounds perfect for Bond. Flavor wise he is convincing the ms because of his charms, but since he’s a seecrreeettttt agent man it also makes sense no realizes what he’s doing lol

As for Annie I like the idea of it being 3 shot

 

[Alexem]

Hm. Okay, so does everyone think Anne should be a passive or active PR? If it's active then I'll just give them the command line, but still no info on what will happen. I'll let them decide if they want to wish in that instance.

Looks like you've settled on active - I was just going to add that if it's an active, you could afford to make the possible benefits better and the penalties stronger to introduce more of a risk/reward factor. If it were to be passive, it would have been fairer to make them more slight, since Annie could potentially be screwed by the RNG night after night through no fault of their own.

So, how I see this happening is that Bond can redirect MS's and they don't get told they're being redirected or a choice to refuse. This includes scum like WW and KP. The offside is that Bond doesn't get any of the result information, those all go the MSs. As for if they're told who they targeted...hm, I'm unsure on this one. Group vote!

The results should certainly go to the MSs, there's no doubt about that. I wonder if concealing the targets would make it more of a negative utility for town? If Bond doesn't claim and has a lot of successful shots, I can see his role turning into WIFOM central. (Mind you, perhaps that's what you want.) As you've mentioned KP, do you have an idea in mind for what would happen if Bond manages to select her? Since he can't pick which move to make and Kim wouldn't have any input, would it be decided by RNG?

 

[lokiduck]

Looks like you've settled on active - I was just going to add that if it's an active, you could afford to make the possible benefits better and the penalties stronger to introduce more of a risk/reward factor. If it were to be passive, it would have been fairer to make them more slight, since Annie could potentially be screwed by the RNG night after night through no fault of their own.


The results should certainly go to the MSs, there's no doubt about that. I wonder if concealing the targets would make it more of a negative utility for town? If Bond doesn't claim and has a lot of successful shots, I can see his role turning into WIFOM central. (Mind you, perhaps that's what you want.) As you've mentioned KP, do you have an idea in mind for what would happen if Bond manages to select her? Since he can't pick which move to make and Kim wouldn't have any input, would it be decided by RNG?

Lol I see we disagree there. For me it definitely is more anti town if they aren’t told after the fact but town switchers don’t notify town either. The fact that scum also won’t be told kind of balances.

If we do do it then make it “you targeted player last night “ or something neutral to make it less clear why it happened.

honestly I might be okay with it being confirmable since it’s more anti town but I need to see how many powers we have are at this point. Let me run the numbers on that when I get home

 

[lokiduck]

LOL said I was going to go over the confirmable powers but

This shit is complicated.

 

[lokiduck]

Okay okay better to just generalize this shit so it goes faster.

Lara Croft, Anakin, and Chuck Norris are confirmable via being powers that happen in thread.

Most of the night actions are admittedly unconfirmable but situational.

Someone could be confirmed via an investigative seeing them target someone but that just confirms having a power not what it is.

The commuters/hider/and Ascetic are confirmable only in not actually being targetable LOL if Disney or Nancy get refunded on Kvothe or no result, then his claim will be believable if he claims.

Enoby knows Vampire is in the game but that's just one player she can back up and if they aren't aware of flavor they ay think Vampire is scum or something based on the flavor in the PM.

Out of the powers the ones that affect actions are confirmable if claimed but may not be believed like most of the night actions.

Additionally all these powers cna be seen as scummy so might prevent them from claiming.

Kirk commute is confirm by no result. Phaser powers depend on the power.

Kim has a towny power and the vote thief can be town so might buy Han cred if claims it.

Soooo

Based on this if Vere wants to go with Alexem's point we can let Mary Sues know they were redirected, but in a neutral tone like "you targeted player last night" in red text.

Might be a good idea as town also has Aizen, Kim has a redirect, and Kirk has switch. XD

 

[lokiduck]

Going over the confirm powers

We have a lot of overlap and protection and stuff... Kind of wondering??? Should we make peeps x shot? Like a lot of peeps?

Unlimited -

Okay -
Kvothe - Fine as can die to NK still even if female killer.
Bond - Fine as anti town potentially.
Bella - Fine. She dies if her hiding target dies and it fails if she picks an MS.

??? -
Amuro Ray - ??? Maybe okay.
Aizen - ??? In combining with Bond will create a LOT of chaos so not sure if good or not.

Not Okay - Scum is beefy so some of these may in fact be okay. I'd like your guys opinions on these.
Nancy - Not fine. She's the cop LOL
Harry - Not fine kind of. Can only target MS but maybe if we make it that they can't stay on the same target for consecutive nights?
Disney - Watcherrrrrrrrrr so same issue as Nancy.
Claire - More okay than Harry because not on consecutive nights and only Gary Stu.
Ebony - Fine. She only watches one person so depends on how long he stays alive.

X Shot -
Kirito - Fine.
Lara - Fine.
Mary Sue - Fine
MaCGuyver - Fine.
Chuck - Fine
Anakin - Fine
Annie - Fine (lol if her, Bond, and Aizen are unlimited and lived till end game we'd ahve some nonsense)
Ebony - Vig shot also fine.


---

Steele depends on what power she gets

---

So what do you guys think about all this? XD Are we okay with these or do we need to make changes.

 

[Alexem]

Based on this if Vere wants to go with Alexem's point we can let Mary Sues know they were redirected, but in a neutral tone like "you targeted player last night" in red text.

That's all that would need to be said - the chosen MS wouldn't need to know why their action was over-ridden (although it shouldn't be too hard to work out that there could be a captain in play), but they should at least know who their action was used on to give the results they get any kind of meaning. Otherwise, it would all depend on Bond claiming, which depending on circumstances they might not want (or even get the chance) to do.

Unlimited -

Okay -
Kvothe - Fine as can die to NK still even if female killer.
Bond - Fine as anti town potentially.
Bella - Fine. She dies if her hiding target dies and it fails if she picks an MS.

??? -
Amuro Ray - ??? Maybe okay.
Aizen - ??? In combining with Bond will create a LOT of chaos so not sure if good or not.

Not Okay - Scum is beefy so some of these may in fact be okay. I'd like your guys opinions on these.
Nancy - Not fine. She's the cop LOL
Harry - Not fine kind of. Can only target MS but maybe if we make it that they can't stay on the same target for consecutive nights?
Disney - Watcherrrrrrrrrr so same issue as Nancy.
Claire - More okay than Harry because not on consecutive nights and only Gary Stu.
Ebony - Fine. She only watches one person so depends on how long he stays alive.

Going through them one at a time:

• Kvothe - strictly speaking, shouldn't an ascetic player be immune to kills? My read of his role so far has been that he can only be taken out (aside from getting voted out) by the GS scum (or some other GS role, like Kirk's phaser or Norris' day ending roundhouse kick), which would also make him a counter against WW's strong kill. If he's ascetic but not immune to kills, I think that should be made clear in his PM.
• Bond and Bella - agreed, they should be fine as-is.
• Amuro - probably fine unlimited. There are so many roles in play that having an unlimited roleblocker around might be beneficial as a way of keeping things from getting too out of hand. He could also provide some defence against scum later on.
• Aizen - might be worth capping to keep things from getting too messy. Would three shots sound about right? Some chaos is necessary, so there's no point in being too stingy.
• Nancy - hmm, as long as she can't be followed then I don't necessarily think there's any harm in her having unlimited shots. To that end...
• Harry - shouldn't be allowed to target the same player on consecutive nights. As he could theoretically protect Nancy night after night, that loophole needs to be closed. Good spot, Loki.
• Disney Princess - again, probably OK to have unlimited shots - I think town are going to need some investigative ammo seeing as scum are pretty well armed - but perhaps she shouldn't be allowed to repeat targets on consecutive nights to rein her in.
• Claire - already has the non-consecutive limitation and can't follow the cop anyway. (Her biggest risk would probably be if she followed Bond, but that's swingy anyway seeing as his actions are unpredictable.)
• Enoby Ebony - the whole point of her role is that she's watching Harry, so there's not much reason to limit her. Aside from her killing move, she's pretty much passive.

 

[Alexem]

I wonder - if Little Orphan Annie's going to get limited shots, perhaps we should reward her with some important, must-know information as a reward for using them all?

OR FHER GB QEVAX LBHE BINYGVAR

 

[lokiduck]

Kvothe - strictly speaking, shouldn't an ascetic player be immune to kills? My read of his role so far has been that he can only be taken out (aside from getting voted out) by the GS scum (or some other GS role, like Kirk's phaser or Norris' day ending roundhouse kick), which would also make him a counter against WW's strong kill. If he's ascetic but not immune to kills, I think that should be made clear in his PM.

From what I understood Ascetics are immune to all night actions except Killing actions.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ascetic

See?

Amuro - probably fine unlimited. There are so many roles in play that having an unlimited roleblocker around might be beneficial as a way of keeping things from getting too out of hand. He could also provide some defence against scum later on.

Okay yeah makes sense.

Aizen - might be worth capping to keep things from getting too messy. Would three shots sound about right? Some chaos is necessary, so there's no point in being too stingy.

3 shots is perfect.

• Nancy - hmm, as long as she can't be followed then I don't necessarily think there's any harm in her having unlimited shots. To that end...
• Harry - shouldn't be allowed to target the same player on consecutive nights. As he could theoretically protect Nancy night after night, that loophole needs to be closed. Good spot, Loki.

Okay true. Plus she's probably dead once she claims unless scum tries some weird gambit lol.

Disney Princess - again, probably OK to have unlimited shots - I think town are going to need some investigative ammo seeing as scum are pretty well armed - but perhaps she shouldn't be allowed to repeat targets on consecutive nights to rein her in.

True.

Enoby Ebony - the whole point of her role is that she's watching Harry, so there's not much reason to limit her. Aside from her killing move, she's pretty much passive.

Yep. The shot is the one part she has control and I was always okay with her being unlimited. XD

I wonder - if Little Orphan Annie's going to get limited shots, perhaps we should reward her with some important, must-know information as a reward for using them all?

OR FHER GB QEVAX LBHE BINYGVAR

What do you mean exactly? XD

 

[Alexem]

From what I understood Ascetics are immune to all night actions except Killing actions.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ascetic

See?

OK, that one's on my rubbish memory.

What do you mean exactly? XD

Try setting your Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Ring™ to Rot13.

 

[Verelios]

Glad you like the label and yeah that sounds perfect for Bond. Flavor wise he is convincing the ms because of his charms, but since he’s a seecrreeettttt agent man it also makes sense no realizes what he’s doing lol

As for Annie I like the idea of it being 3 shot

Nice, 3 shot for Annie it is.

Looks like you've settled on active - I was just going to add that if it's an active, you could afford to make the possible benefits better and the penalties stronger to introduce more of a risk/reward factor. If it were to be passive, it would have been fairer to make them more slight, since Annie could potentially be screwed by the RNG night after night through no fault of their own.


The results should certainly go to the MSs, there's no doubt about that. I wonder if concealing the targets would make it more of a negative utility for town? If Bond doesn't claim and has a lot of successful shots, I can see his role turning into WIFOM central. (Mind you, perhaps that's what you want.) As you've mentioned KP, do you have an idea in mind for what would happen if Bond manages to select her? Since he can't pick which move to make and Kim wouldn't have any input, would it be decided by RNG?

Hm. Yeah, I think it would have to be rnged if Bond chose KP.

Going over the confirm powers

View attachment 626

We have a lot of overlap and protection and stuff... Kind of wondering??? Should we make peeps x shot? Like a lot of peeps?

Unlimited -

Okay -
Kvothe - Fine as can die to NK still even if female killer.
Bond - Fine as anti town potentially.
Bella - Fine. She dies if her hiding target dies and it fails if she picks an MS.

??? -
Amuro Ray - ??? Maybe okay.
Aizen - ??? In combining with Bond will create a LOT of chaos so not sure if good or not.

Not Okay - Scum is beefy so some of these may in fact be okay. I'd like your guys opinions on these.
Nancy - Not fine. She's the cop LOL
Harry - Not fine kind of. Can only target MS but maybe if we make it that they can't stay on the same target for consecutive nights?
Disney - Watcherrrrrrrrrr so same issue as Nancy.
Claire - More okay than Harry because not on consecutive nights and only Gary Stu.
Ebony - Fine. She only watches one person so depends on how long he stays alive.

X Shot -
Kirito - Fine.
Lara - Fine.
Mary Sue - Fine
MaCGuyver - Fine.
Chuck - Fine
Anakin - Fine
Annie - Fine (lol if her, Bond, and Aizen are unlimited and lived till end game we'd ahve some nonsense)
Ebony - Vig shot also fine.


---

Steele depends on what power she gets

---

So what do you guys think about all this? XD Are we okay with these or do we need to make changes.

That's all that would need to be said - the chosen MS wouldn't need to know why their action was over-ridden (although it shouldn't be too hard to work out that there could be a captain in play), but they should at least know who their action was used on to give the results they get any kind of meaning. Otherwise, it would all depend on Bond claiming, which depending on circumstances they might not want (or even get the chance) to do.


Going through them one at a time:

• Kvothe - strictly speaking, shouldn't an ascetic player be immune to kills? My read of his role so far has been that he can only be taken out (aside from getting voted out) by the GS scum (or some other GS role, like Kirk's phaser or Norris' day ending roundhouse kick), which would also make him a counter against WW's strong kill. If he's ascetic but not immune to kills, I think that should be made clear in his PM.
• Bond and Bella - agreed, they should be fine as-is.
• Amuro - probably fine unlimited. There are so many roles in play that having an unlimited roleblocker around might be beneficial as a way of keeping things from getting too out of hand. He could also provide some defence against scum later on.
• Aizen - might be worth capping to keep things from getting too messy. Would three shots sound about right? Some chaos is necessary, so there's no point in being too stingy.
• Nancy - hmm, as long as she can't be followed then I don't necessarily think there's any harm in her having unlimited shots. To that end...
• Harry - shouldn't be allowed to target the same player on consecutive nights. As he could theoretically protect Nancy night after night, that loophole needs to be closed. Good spot, Loki.
• Disney Princess - again, probably OK to have unlimited shots - I think town are going to need some investigative ammo seeing as scum are pretty well armed - but perhaps she shouldn't be allowed to repeat targets on consecutive nights to rein her in.
• Claire - already has the non-consecutive limitation and can't follow the cop anyway. (Her biggest risk would probably be if she followed Bond, but that's swingy anyway seeing as his actions are unpredictable.)
• Enoby Ebony - the whole point of her role is that she's watching Harry, so there's not much reason to limit her. Aside from her killing move, she's pretty much passive.

These are good points. I think we can make it so that Harry can't target the same person consecutively, same with Disney Princess. Hmmm, do we think Aizen could use 3 shots? That seems like the sweet spot for spots and I don't know if people would find 2 or 4 weird. 3 shots it is.

As for Nancy, do you both mean that she can't be tracked?

 

[lokiduck]

As for Nancy, do you both mean that she can't be tracked?

Meaning the the doctor doesn't protect her player every single night to make sure she gets her results out.

If Every can't do consecutive it gives a chance for her to be killed.

 

[Alexem]

As for Nancy, do you both mean that she can't be tracked?

Meaning the the doctor doesn't protect her player every single night to make sure she gets her results out.

If Every can't do consecutive it gives a chance for her to be killed.

It's exactly as Loki explained - if Nancy claims cop and Harry can repeat his choices on consecutive nights, he can keep Nancy in the game until he gets whacked himself. By making him change each night, he could still protect her on alternating nights, but there would be a window of opportunity for scum to take her out on the nights in between.

 

[Verelios]

Meaning the the doctor doesn't protect her player every single night to make sure she gets her results out.

If Every can't do consecutive it gives a chance for her to be killed.

It's exactly as Loki explained - if Nancy claims cop and Harry can repeat his choices on consecutive nights, he can keep Nancy in the game until he gets whacked himself. By making him change each night, he could still protect her on alternating nights, but there would be a window of opportunity for scum to take her out on the nights in between.

That's what I initially thought but I wanted to make sure, haha. I then thought afterwards that it might be a modifer that didn't let her be tracked and confused myself.

 

[lokiduck]

That's what I initially thought but I wanted to make sure, haha. I then thought afterwards that it might be a modifer that didn't let her be tracked and confused myself.

Lol there are in fact roles that allow that but we haven’t done that with Nancy. She’s always willing to have someone watch her back while she cracks the case :da Vinci:

 

[Alexem]

How do we feel about the game at the moment? Are there any other elements still under consideration, or are you happy for it to get approved? I think the recent adjustments put it in a good position.

 

[Verelios]

How do we feel about the game at the moment? Are there any other elements still under consideration, or are you happy for it to get approved? I think the recent adjustments put it in a good position.

Uhhh, I'm happy. I think we just have to yay or nay, Annie's effects because we mentioned making them stronger or more severe?

 

[lokiduck]

Right I think Annie is the last thing to figure out.

Actually I forget. Did we crunch the numbers for how long it’ll take? I feel like Annie should be balanced based on how good or bad town’s chances are lol.

 

[Alexem]

Actually I forget. Did we crunch the numbers for how long it’ll take? I feel like Annie should be balanced based on how good or bad town’s chances are lol.

No I don't think that's been done that. Are you up to number crunching a role madness game? It's a bit beyond my skills.

 

[Verelios]

Right I think Annie is the last thing to figure out.

Actually I forget. Did we crunch the numbers for how long it’ll take? I feel like Annie should be balanced based on how good or bad town’s chances are lol.

No I don't think that's been done that. Are you up to number crunching a role madness game? It's a bit beyond my skills.

I...think we could possibly do scenarios by running all the abilities through RNG and seeing what happens. We can also do mylo situations and all scum mv situations, but that seems crazy variable.

 

[Alexem]

This is one of those designs where there are so many variables in play that it's hard to come up with a decent ballpark. My gut tells me that there are enough defensive moves in play that the game could conceivably go on for some time, so perhaps it might be better to work out what the fastest paths to victory might be and see if they're too short.

 

[Alexem]

By the way, sorry if I seem a bit removed from things at the moment, but I've not been well this week. Apologies in advance if it takes me la bit longer to get back to you than usual.

 

[Verelios]

By the way, sorry if I seem a bit removed from things at the moment, but I've not been well this week. Apologies in advance if it takes me la bit longer to get back to you than usual.

No problem, I hope you get better!

 

[Verelios]

This is one of those designs where there are so many variables in play that it's hard to come up with a decent ballpark. My gut tells me that there are enough defensive moves in play that the game could conceivably go on for some time, so perhaps it might be better to work out what the fastest paths to victory might be and see if they're too short.

So, most optimum path to victory for everyone? We can do that.

 

[lokiduck]

This is one of those designs where there are so many variables in play that it's hard to come up with a decent ballpark. My gut tells me that there are enough defensive moves in play that the game could conceivably go on for some time, so perhaps it might be better to work out what the fastest paths to victory might be and see if they're too short.

We could do what I've done with previous rolemadness games which is just calculating what is the shortest path to victory for each faction. LOL basically what are the most ideal scenarios where a faction makes no mistake or thinks work out for them to win.

Usually these scenarios never happen, but if town just needs 2 days and Scum needs 8 you know you have some issues LOL.

 

[Alexem]

I've been doing a bit of thinking about fastest wins. I suspect that, as things are, town have the potential to win faster than scum can.

The fastest town win that I can think of would be after D3, although it would require very exact circumstances to happen:

D1 - Vote out Rey (removes possibility of force lightning shot).
N1 - Assume Kim tracks Harry, she and Ebony remain in play. Kirk shoots Ash, Han or WW.
D2 - Vote out Ash, Han or WW
N2 - Ebony kills Kim
D3 - Remaining scum voted out.

Scum, however, need to take out fourteen players without getting hit themselves to win as soon as possible - at the earliest, that would be after N7 (D7 could potentially be MELO depending on whether or not the night's kill can fail) without extra kills or N6 if Ebony and Kirk take out town players. This also assumes that none of their kills get blocked (say due to hiding, protection, trying to vote out Lara etc.). In this situation, scum's main line of attack is essentially to play the long game and make town attack each other non-stop without arousing suspicion.

If this is the case, would it be better if scum were allowed to double-kill in night phases? We limited WW's strong shots to be an alternative to the nightly kill in case it made them OP, but perhaps they should be allowed to use both at the same time to speed the game along.

 

[Verelios]

I've been doing a bit of thinking about fastest wins. I suspect that, as things are, town have the potential to win faster than scum can.

The fastest town win that I can think of would be after D3, although it would require very exact circumstances to happen:


Scum, however, need to take out fourteen players without getting hit themselves to win as soon as possible - at the earliest, that would be after N7 (D7 could potentially be MELO depending on whether or not the night's kill can fail) without extra kills or N6 if Ebony and Kirk take out town players. This also assumes that none of their kills get blocked (say due to hiding, protection, trying to vote out Lara etc.). In this situation, scum's main line of attack is essentially to play the long game and make town attack each other non-stop without arousing suspicion.

If this is the case, would it be better if scum were allowed to double-kill in night phases? We limited WW's strong shots to be an alternative to the nightly kill in case it made them OP, but perhaps they should be allowed to use both at the same time to speed the game along.

Wow. Let me see.

25 players: 18 T; 1N; 5S
D1- MV->NK T/1 Kirk Kill T
15 T; 1 N; 5S
D2-MV->NK (double Hider kill) T/1Ebony kill T
12T; 1 N; 5S
D3->MV/NK T
10 T/1N; 5S
D4: MV/Nk
8T/1 N/5S
D5: MV/NK
6T/1 N/5S
D6 Win

Geez, that does seem a little bad especially with all the protection running around. Hmmmm, so, are you thinking of letting WW SK along with the NK on non-consecutive days?

 

[Alexem]

Hmmmm, so, are you thinking of letting WW SK along with the NK on non-consecutive days?

It's a bit extreme, but I think they might need it to cut through the numbers. I wonder if town's defensive roles might need to be weakened in any way to keep the game from dragging on too long?

 

[lokiduck]

Wow. Let me see.

25 players: 18 T; 1N; 5S
D1- MV->NK T/1 Kirk Kill T
15 T; 1 N; 5S
D2-MV->NK (double Hider kill) T/1Ebony kill T
12T; 1 N; 5S
D3->MV/NK T
10 T/1N; 5S
D4: MV/Nk
8T/1 N/5S
D5: MV/NK
6T/1 N/5S
D6 Win

Geez, that does seem a little bad especially with all the protection running around. Hmmmm, so, are you thinking of letting WW SK along with the NK on non-consecutive days?

It's a bit extreme, but I think they might need it to cut through the numbers. I wonder if town's defensive roles might need to be weakened in any way to keep the game from dragging on too long?

One automatic suggestion is that since WW Strong shots are limited, she’d be allowed to hit commuters aka Kirito and Kirk

Bella can stay protected as she has the risk of dying with her target always, but WW being able to kill the two commuters might make town protection less viable as long as Wondie uses her shots on the right target.

that does suck to kirk of course but his wincon can’t exactly be easy and again scum is limited on how many strong shots they have.

a double kill night might be the other solution.

 

[Alexem]

Both sound like viable options, and might provide a necessary limitation to town's defences in the interest of a faster game. What do you think, Vere?

 

[Verelios]

One automatic suggestion is that since WW Strong shots are limited, she’d be allowed to hit commuters aka Kirito and Kirk

Bella can stay protected as she has the risk of dying with her target always, but WW being able to kill the two commuters might make town protection less viable as long as Wondie uses her shots on the right target.

that does suck to kirk of course but his wincon can’t exactly be easy and again scum is limited on how many strong shots they have.

a double kill night might be the other solution.

Both sound like viable options, and might provide a necessary limitation to town's defences in the interest of a faster game. What do you think, Vere?

Double kill night is fine for me. I'm just worried that it would make town think there's maybe SK or second faction running around instead of it being Maf.

I think Strong going through commute is an interesting idea. I'm for it, but we're going to get A LOT of shit from feedback after the game lol. Let's think about a rationale, haha.

 

[Alexem]

I think Strong going through commute is an interesting idea. I'm for it, but we're going to get A LOT of shit from feedback after the game lol. Let's think about a rationale, haha.

At the very least, I think the possibility would need to be declared on the commuters' PMs - something along the lines of 'be warned that some attacks may even be able to reach you wherever you are'. Being an unusual game would allow some leeway - so would being a bit bastard - but it's still something to be careful not to push too far. A bit of fair warning would be better than being accused of being unfair.

 

[Verelios]

At the very least, I think the possibility would need to be declared on the commuters' PMs - something along the lines of 'be warned that some attacks may even be able to reach you wherever you are'. Being an unusual game would allow some leeway - so would being a bit bastard - but it's still something to be careful not to push too far. A bit of fair warning would be better than being accused of being unfair.

That's a good idea. We could even make WW's role a Super Strongman.

 

[lokiduck]

At the very least, I think the possibility would need to be declared on the commuters' PMs - something along the lines of 'be warned that some attacks may even be able to reach you wherever you are'. Being an unusual game would allow some leeway - so would being a bit bastard - but it's still something to be careful not to push too far. A bit of fair warning would be better than being accused of being unfair.

Lol some strong shots have gotten through commuters in the past. I do as much in cases where they are limited and town has too much protection. But to be fair it is considered a bastard way of balancing so I guess the player knowing of the possibility is more fair.

it does suck for Kirk so what if it can only get through Kirito is is they unfair to Kirito by favoring Kirk?

 

[Alexem]

Just say that a bridge fell on Kirk. I think that might have worked once before.

 

[Verelios]

Lol some strong shots have gotten through commuters in the past. I do as much in cases where they are limited and town has too much protection. But to be fair it is considered a bastard way of balancing so I guess the player knowing of the possibility is more fair.

it does suck for Kirk so what if it can only get through Kirito is is they unfair to Kirito by favoring Kirk?

Yeah, we definitely can't favor one commuter over the other since that'll be a whole other problem. I think we can tell them that it's a possibility so they're not shocked it happens.

 

[Alexem]

Any updates I need to know about? If it's agreed, I think the PMs just need to be updated to reflect WW being changed to a super strong killer.

 

[Verelios]

Any updates I need to know about? If it's agreed, I think the PMs just need to be updated to reflect WW being changed to a super strong killer.

I...think that's it? Yeah.

 

[lokiduck]

Did we figure out Annie? That was the last piece I believe?

 

[Verelios]

Did we figure out Annie? That was the last piece I believe?

Uh, check out the msc tab in the excel sheet and see how you like the continuum or if there's something to change.

We made her an active 3 shot, so if that's good then we're cool.

 

[lokiduck]

Ah okay then :D we good. I'm fine with everything!

 

[Alexem]

OK, if you're fine with the PMs (did you want to give Kirito and Kirk fair warning that their commutes might not always save them?), are you happy for me to give the go-ahead?

 

[lokiduck]

@Verelios Yeah are you ready? :D

 

[Verelios]

@Verelios Yeah are you ready? :D

We're ready o7

 

[Verelios]

OK, if you're fine with the PMs (did you want to give Kirito and Kirk fair warning that their commutes might not always save them?), are you happy for me to give the go-ahead?

I thought I had but never actually replied to this. Yeah, we managed to bake that warning into their PMs XD

 

[lokiduck]

I thought I had but never actually replied to this. Yeah, we managed to bake that warning into their PMs XD

Then

Are we done finally?

 

[Verelios]

Then

View attachment 649

Are we done finally?

All we need is the thumbs up from Alexem.

 

[lokiduck]

@Alexem

 

[Alexem]

The thumb will be going up very shortly...

 

[lokiduck]

The thumb will be going up very shortly...