Yeah I just don't agree. Fanto, sorry you designed a great game and town killed it. Again in my opinion just calling out ephi as scum led to geno sneeks looking bad. (Zipped already looked bad from day 1) and this was all before we even had zeke claim. Sure the claims helped cement things, but we were already on the right track from the moment me and donnie moved our votes last minute on d1 imo
80s Wrestling Mafia - Spec Thread
- Thread starter Fanto
- Start date
-
- Tags
- spectator thread
I'll reserve judgement on this when all the roles are out but I don't think it's really unbalanced. What got things tilted is just that town played really f'ing well and I'm not sure that's something that can really be planned for. With EZA I know we were caught no matter what the roles and money situation were, yeah maybe there could have been tweaks where we lasted another couple of days but we played bad and town was great that game. Like ATP just said and what Chuggs mentioned earlier with regards to my flip, town was able to find town (or narrow it down even when they weren't sure) before the claims were really out there much.
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
I don't think game balance was the issue in DR2. That game felt very winnable. Honestly same with Star Trek.
LiS I can't speak to, EZA...yeah EZA might have been a bit unbalanced but that game was also hilarious and is probably one of my favorite games so no Fanto! Don't give yourself a hard time about this
My top 3 mafia moments, being cop in eza and using the dice on hedin to divert his kill, nailing hp as scum day 1 in star trek, nailing ephi as scum moments into d2 in 80s wrestling.. your games in my opinion, fucking rock.
Verelios
Were-elios
Town had a chance in Star Trek, we just believed in the modifier too much and it cost us the game. Otherwise we were good to go by D5.
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
Anyways fanto
life is full of ups and downs
no need to worry about your games being too swingy towards one side. its all fun and games, and i would sign up for another fanto game. maybe i will review another one but id rather be a player than a reader
life is full of ups and downs
no need to worry about your games being too swingy towards one side. its all fun and games, and i would sign up for another fanto game. maybe i will review another one but id rather be a player than a reader
Fanto
Confirmed Town
Oh and to add on to this, I didn't read through all the role claims but I'm going to guess Rover left this part off of his claim.
He's a Macho Cop, which means he can't be protected from kills.
Ephidel
How do you do, fellow mafia?
I mean let's be blunt here, Fanto and ATP are right, my presence here was what fucked over my team by association.
If someone competent had been playing my slot it probably doesn't play out like this.
It feels really fucking bad because it isn't fair to anyone who gets lumbered with me at this point but as this is the second time I've got caught near instantly as scum and torpedoed my team in the process it is quite clearly a me problem.
Some of that was a hell of my own making too, because the things I have worked very hard to improve in my town game I just couldn't carry to this one and it got worse once I choked. Falling back into post paralysis would still have been bad but probably wouldn't have looked *as* damning if I hadn't spent my last few games making incredibly pained efforts to try and look like I was posting more freely, for example.
Then there's the fact town have just played really fucking well this game.
Some of it was right roles right people: Chuggs got to build his own Towncore, Donnie shut down the what if of the Fate train, Zeke and Sparks confirmed each other when usually there'd be suspicion to go around there, etc.
But it wasn't just roles. The fact is people really pulled it together this game. People worked things through and trusted each other where they needed to, and that's not soley due to the claims but I would be lying if every time someone pulled out a verifiable role I didn't go agh not another one.
If someone competent had been playing my slot it probably doesn't play out like this.
It feels really fucking bad because it isn't fair to anyone who gets lumbered with me at this point but as this is the second time I've got caught near instantly as scum and torpedoed my team in the process it is quite clearly a me problem.
Some of that was a hell of my own making too, because the things I have worked very hard to improve in my town game I just couldn't carry to this one and it got worse once I choked. Falling back into post paralysis would still have been bad but probably wouldn't have looked *as* damning if I hadn't spent my last few games making incredibly pained efforts to try and look like I was posting more freely, for example.
Then there's the fact town have just played really fucking well this game.
Some of it was right roles right people: Chuggs got to build his own Towncore, Donnie shut down the what if of the Fate train, Zeke and Sparks confirmed each other when usually there'd be suspicion to go around there, etc.
But it wasn't just roles. The fact is people really pulled it together this game. People worked things through and trusted each other where they needed to, and that's not soley due to the claims but I would be lying if every time someone pulled out a verifiable role I didn't go agh not another one.
Ephidel
How do you do, fellow mafia?
No, he included that part XD
You were just unfortunate, basically the vote movement made me feel great about donnie and good about hp and chuggs. So you questioning it first thing combined with being on the hedin vote looked bad to me. But there is easily wla world where me and donnie don't move. Or donnie doesn't shoot fate, and fate is the day 2 vote.
Honestly I don't think the game was unbalanced or scum played bad. It was a matter of town playing great, and every crux moment going towns way, which like never happens so it feels weird lol
Sparks and zeke getting the lovers and being cleared there helped a ton because town didn't have to be paranoid about two players scum often use as a distraction. Hp played the best town game he's had imo. He was so open and collaborative. Lp made that great last post on d1 pushing sneeks. Donnie shooting fate, hell even the cop went 2 for 2 on scum checks.
The only thing that would have made this perfect is if I protected nin n1 but I just didn't think he would be night kill target even though he was personal top town.
Nin also nailed me being an important power role d1 too.
Nin's been on a scary good run lately lol
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
No no Ephi don’t you get down on yourself either >:(
Pretty much what ATP said, you just got caught in a really small PoE and there’s a ton of ways this plays out that doesn’t allow us to focus in like that or town read each like we did. Like there’s a reason we were so sure there was scum on that wagon and it’s not because it was bad play. That’s a good place to park for scum and ideally it would have been a much better place to hide. If Zeke didn’t have Sparks backing him up I’m probably chasing him that day phase. If Fates not dead I’m probably chasing him that day phase.
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
I’m putting my foot down despite having no authority to do so here. This is now a no being hard on yourself allowed zone. Y’all are all great and good at stuff.
Fanto
Confirmed Town
Ok let's go ahead and go full spoilers in here before the day starts.
FULL SPOILERS AHEAD
TOWN
Jman - Hulk Hogan, 1-Shot Elim Proof
LP - Ted DiBiase, Millionaire
Donnie - Bret Hart, 2-Shot Vig
HPSauce - Kerry Von Erich, Loved
Turmoil - Jerry Lawler, 1-Shot Kingmaker
EC - Dusty Rhodes, Vanilla
Kopite - Koko B Ware, 1-Shot Parrot
Z-Beat, Jim Duggan, 1-Shot Motivator
Zeke/Sparks, Hawk and Animal, Tag Team (Lovers)
SCUM
Zipped - Andre the Giant, 2-Shot Strongman
Wee - Paul Orndorff, Infinite Shot Role-Cop
That's it, no Neutrals, no secret surprises, just 2 Scum left and a whole lot of basically confirmed Townies.
FULL SPOILERS AHEAD
TOWN
Jman - Hulk Hogan, 1-Shot Elim Proof
LP - Ted DiBiase, Millionaire
Donnie - Bret Hart, 2-Shot Vig
HPSauce - Kerry Von Erich, Loved
Turmoil - Jerry Lawler, 1-Shot Kingmaker
EC - Dusty Rhodes, Vanilla
Kopite - Koko B Ware, 1-Shot Parrot
Z-Beat, Jim Duggan, 1-Shot Motivator
Zeke/Sparks, Hawk and Animal, Tag Team (Lovers)
SCUM
Zipped - Andre the Giant, 2-Shot Strongman
Wee - Paul Orndorff, Infinite Shot Role-Cop
That's it, no Neutrals, no secret surprises, just 2 Scum left and a whole lot of basically confirmed Townies.
If hp stays true to himself zipped will be the next elimination. Then it should just be a matter of poe until they get wee.
The Wizard
Confidently Incorrect
Oh yeah town is not gonna like this (not being able to vote or turbo) lol. I'm sad we won't see King Zeke.. the gloating and gifs would have been delightfully insufferable.
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
Nah give it to the town core this is better. I believe in HP. All he has to do is change the color on the floor to red and drop the shot.
Last edited:
I thought it was an override basically.
Ephidel
How do you do, fellow mafia?
I like the Zipped has "mistakenly" claimed the wrong name theory.
If only because I know he's done it quite intentionally, has wanted to claim him all game, and would have been spamming andre gifs from day one if not for me making a joke in the scum thread about it not being the best idea, lol XD
If only because I know he's done it quite intentionally, has wanted to claim him all game, and would have been spamming andre gifs from day one if not for me making a joke in the scum thread about it not being the best idea, lol XD
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
Zipped no :( he’s a well known member of that stable lmao
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
Turms don’t listen to him. HP is the best king
Sawneeks
little green dog
Nah, definitely don't sit out just for that. There were a lot of real neat ideas in this game and the flavor was top notch! Plus as you can see by the variety of opinions everyone has a different read on the game and whether or not it was balanced. And like Geno said, if folks are having fun then that's a good game regardless. might just be something to keep in mind if you're worried about it or even bring it up to the people who are reviewing the game just to be extra sure. Ideally that's when stuff would be caught.
oh hush hush, you were fine. Being just instantly soul read as scum is an impossible spot to be in and i dont know if there even is a correct response on how to play against it. even though they were right im still not sure what tipped off ATP about you lol. just one of those 'live and learn' situations <3
Sawneeks
little green dog
HELLO LITTLE BLUE CAT
Honestly town get squashed so often this game is a hugely refreshing change tbh
karkador
Board Game King
"Is Rover the best cop ever going 2/2 or is it a false crown since town was already going for those two?"
Actually I was 3/3 lol
But I do feel like they were kinda obvious picks + not over-thinking claimed players over unclaimed.
I was between scanning Zipped and Wee, so it seems I just couldn't miss.
I think the roles having character names (and the flavor specifically calling out one wrestling group as scum), did corral scum a bit too much. The mass claim just wrecked shit for scum.
Actually I was 3/3 lol
But I do feel like they were kinda obvious picks + not over-thinking claimed players over unclaimed.
I was between scanning Zipped and Wee, so it seems I just couldn't miss.
I think the roles having character names (and the flavor specifically calling out one wrestling group as scum), did corral scum a bit too much. The mass claim just wrecked shit for scum.
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
Do it
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
I haven't read much of this yet, but I am going to read the whole game in post. I have however studied the setup and I'll say a few things here-
I agree that lots of roles can self-confirm or be soft-confirmed here and that IS something reviewers and designers need to be mindful of. I'm not sure if that's even in the review guide (I don't remember but it's on my list to emphasize if there/add if not) anyway, because I think it should be an early step in review and part of ongoing discussions. That said-
That stuff sometimes only works if there is already a foundation of trust in the game. I think I've seen us yeet every role in this game that could be confirmed, even down to jailers and investigative roles. Claims and soft confirms are a tool in the toolbox, and sometimes that tool is useful and sometimes not.
Here, there are a lot of potentially confirmable roles. I agree with mafia team that this can be a difficult proposition. But the combo of infinite roleblocker + role cop is a great counter to that, especially with a nexus. Even in my strictest review mode (which is not where I operate now; see below), I don't think I'd have had many notes. I'd have probably bumped the strongman up a shot (I have come around to thinking strongman should have same shots as highest protective role), and counseled against Loved and ElimProof in same game (fills same slot to my eyes), but I also probably wouldn't have cleared an infinite roleblocker - but these are quibbles, I think. The balance is there. Balance, however, is ONLY where we start. Once the game begins... we start sliding into many possible worlds. This game goes very differently with a different d1, with different players, with different plays. I fully believe we could run this again and see a scum victory if the cards went that way.
Mafia team is 23.8%, relatively high.
Negative utility: Jailer (possibly), lovers, vigilante (though perhaps less here as higher scum numbers increase chance of hitting scum also), parrot, macho cop (especially if they DON'T claim the macho modifier and protectors waste a shot attempting, though that can also eat a strong shot, so it possibly evens out)
Small outlier negative: motivator
Lovers at a 2:1 effectively reduce town by one, bumping mafia to an effective 25%. Negative utility here somewhat mitigated too because these roles can confirm. Jailer is often suspected tho; we kill jailers a lot (and community meta should be considered to a degree in balance). Lovers can confirm each other but are still a twofer, though the configuration here is interesting and I wonder at optimal strategy for these lovers, though without reading the game it's just speculation in my head.
So, potential self-confirmables:
Gossip - gossip is often a town role and often considered a confirm but we all know it's not always the case. it works when there's trust; when there's not, it's less useful
Loved - this is an easy confirm and probably shouldn't co-exist with a kingmaker and an elimproof. If there's a weakness in the balance it's in the combination of those three roles - but I'd have to read the game to know if that's the case. HOWEVER, loved can easily be added to a mafia role and has been in the past here iirc.
Tracker - often works to confirm but because track is often used as a fake claim, it gets scrutiny
Motivator - straightforward
Kingmaker - an easy confirm often, but with only one shot, possible to make the argument this is a JOAT power meant to misdirect
Elim-proof - should usually be town; it has been mafia here but in the past and is usually treated as a town clear, but can absolutely be used by scum to sow distrust and worry (see also: gossip, loved, etc.) - though with a proliferation of these roles, the misdirect only works once and then after that people are more inclined to believe - but again, it just depends on how much distrust and fear has been sown in the thread
Vigilante - often functions as a confirm but lol here it was seen as SK - I do know that - so I think the qualifications here speak for themselves? We seldom kill proven vigilantes, though, and that's the community meta I'd take into account - I'd call this one more confirmable than many of the others
Lovers - yes, but also negative utility
Special cases-
Doctor - standard drawbacks on role, looks great here
Jailer - see above re: community meta
Likely to raise doubt on claim:
Willbooster: because it's an uncommon role, very likely here that folks would question and kill
Parrot: same
Millionaire: same
Vanilla: same, especially if only one - just depends on the game and the tenor (lol also I love that the person who pulled it here often seems to pull the lone vanilla; what a world)
(I highlight these because this is great potential for a team to foment doubt once claims start flying. Again, haven't read the game, but these roles are actually a really neat trap exploitable in the right conditions. Were the conditions there? idk, I'll have to read)
To counter and manipulate all this, scum has an infinite roleblocker, a nexus, a role cop, a strong man, and a bp.
Only notes on scum powers is I'd have possibly made strongman a modified JOAT - one super kill or whatever (strong + ninja), one strong, one ninja, or some other combination resulting in three shots.
Otherwise, I think it's balanced. I think a strong town game mows down most teams - and that's as it should be, because the strong town game is hard to pull off and that's the nature of the game. The problem with that is it SUCKS for scum and man I get that, but it's really rare.
Now, after I read the game I might have more. But here's my summary:
1. Fanto, if you stop designing games I'm driving north and throwing a single egg at your door. I'll find the door. I have eggs.
2. I've said this before and it bears repeating: the community asked for less interference in review. It means games may be less balanced. I don't think this is one of them. But if we want to change that, we do need to tweak review methods. Not majorly, but just refine practices. I did not review this game, nor have I read the review thread, but I'm guessing this went through similar processes and standard questions were asked. Game is as solid as any other. Potential to win was on both sides. Is it perfect? Nah. But it's solid and winnable from either side to my non-invested eye.
3. It sucks for any team/individual player to feel like they can't do anything because mafia games are long. It's easy to lose motivation. I don't know if there's a fix for that. :(
4. Sometimes it just be that way. And it's incredibly demoralizing. But also mafia was not helped by two replacements. We can't change that! Shit happens! But it does impact the game, same as it impacts the game when a high percentage of town players switch out too. We cannot ignore the impacts of that (or any other event) when thinking postgame about balance.
I agree that lots of roles can self-confirm or be soft-confirmed here and that IS something reviewers and designers need to be mindful of. I'm not sure if that's even in the review guide (I don't remember but it's on my list to emphasize if there/add if not) anyway, because I think it should be an early step in review and part of ongoing discussions. That said-
That stuff sometimes only works if there is already a foundation of trust in the game. I think I've seen us yeet every role in this game that could be confirmed, even down to jailers and investigative roles. Claims and soft confirms are a tool in the toolbox, and sometimes that tool is useful and sometimes not.
Here, there are a lot of potentially confirmable roles. I agree with mafia team that this can be a difficult proposition. But the combo of infinite roleblocker + role cop is a great counter to that, especially with a nexus. Even in my strictest review mode (which is not where I operate now; see below), I don't think I'd have had many notes. I'd have probably bumped the strongman up a shot (I have come around to thinking strongman should have same shots as highest protective role), and counseled against Loved and ElimProof in same game (fills same slot to my eyes), but I also probably wouldn't have cleared an infinite roleblocker - but these are quibbles, I think. The balance is there. Balance, however, is ONLY where we start. Once the game begins... we start sliding into many possible worlds. This game goes very differently with a different d1, with different players, with different plays. I fully believe we could run this again and see a scum victory if the cards went that way.
Mafia team is 23.8%, relatively high.
Negative utility: Jailer (possibly), lovers, vigilante (though perhaps less here as higher scum numbers increase chance of hitting scum also), parrot, macho cop (especially if they DON'T claim the macho modifier and protectors waste a shot attempting, though that can also eat a strong shot, so it possibly evens out)
Small outlier negative: motivator
Lovers at a 2:1 effectively reduce town by one, bumping mafia to an effective 25%. Negative utility here somewhat mitigated too because these roles can confirm. Jailer is often suspected tho; we kill jailers a lot (and community meta should be considered to a degree in balance). Lovers can confirm each other but are still a twofer, though the configuration here is interesting and I wonder at optimal strategy for these lovers, though without reading the game it's just speculation in my head.
So, potential self-confirmables:
Gossip - gossip is often a town role and often considered a confirm but we all know it's not always the case. it works when there's trust; when there's not, it's less useful
Loved - this is an easy confirm and probably shouldn't co-exist with a kingmaker and an elimproof. If there's a weakness in the balance it's in the combination of those three roles - but I'd have to read the game to know if that's the case. HOWEVER, loved can easily be added to a mafia role and has been in the past here iirc.
Tracker - often works to confirm but because track is often used as a fake claim, it gets scrutiny
Motivator - straightforward
Kingmaker - an easy confirm often, but with only one shot, possible to make the argument this is a JOAT power meant to misdirect
Elim-proof - should usually be town; it has been mafia here but in the past and is usually treated as a town clear, but can absolutely be used by scum to sow distrust and worry (see also: gossip, loved, etc.) - though with a proliferation of these roles, the misdirect only works once and then after that people are more inclined to believe - but again, it just depends on how much distrust and fear has been sown in the thread
Vigilante - often functions as a confirm but lol here it was seen as SK - I do know that - so I think the qualifications here speak for themselves? We seldom kill proven vigilantes, though, and that's the community meta I'd take into account - I'd call this one more confirmable than many of the others
Lovers - yes, but also negative utility
Special cases-
Doctor - standard drawbacks on role, looks great here
Jailer - see above re: community meta
Likely to raise doubt on claim:
Willbooster: because it's an uncommon role, very likely here that folks would question and kill
Parrot: same
Millionaire: same
Vanilla: same, especially if only one - just depends on the game and the tenor (lol also I love that the person who pulled it here often seems to pull the lone vanilla; what a world)
(I highlight these because this is great potential for a team to foment doubt once claims start flying. Again, haven't read the game, but these roles are actually a really neat trap exploitable in the right conditions. Were the conditions there? idk, I'll have to read)
To counter and manipulate all this, scum has an infinite roleblocker, a nexus, a role cop, a strong man, and a bp.
Only notes on scum powers is I'd have possibly made strongman a modified JOAT - one super kill or whatever (strong + ninja), one strong, one ninja, or some other combination resulting in three shots.
Otherwise, I think it's balanced. I think a strong town game mows down most teams - and that's as it should be, because the strong town game is hard to pull off and that's the nature of the game. The problem with that is it SUCKS for scum and man I get that, but it's really rare.
Now, after I read the game I might have more. But here's my summary:
1. Fanto, if you stop designing games I'm driving north and throwing a single egg at your door. I'll find the door. I have eggs.
2. I've said this before and it bears repeating: the community asked for less interference in review. It means games may be less balanced. I don't think this is one of them. But if we want to change that, we do need to tweak review methods. Not majorly, but just refine practices. I did not review this game, nor have I read the review thread, but I'm guessing this went through similar processes and standard questions were asked. Game is as solid as any other. Potential to win was on both sides. Is it perfect? Nah. But it's solid and winnable from either side to my non-invested eye.
3. It sucks for any team/individual player to feel like they can't do anything because mafia games are long. It's easy to lose motivation. I don't know if there's a fix for that. :(
4. Sometimes it just be that way. And it's incredibly demoralizing. But also mafia was not helped by two replacements. We can't change that! Shit happens! But it does impact the game, same as it impacts the game when a high percentage of town players switch out too. We cannot ignore the impacts of that (or any other event) when thinking postgame about balance.
Adding because I kept thinking - I got wound up and now it'll take me a while to stop lol-
I even doubt myself a little on maybe no elimproof/kingmaker/loved trio because one thing that DOES do is helps mafia figure out where to target with abilities. Yeah, those folks get confirmed and that hurts when it comes to PoE, but it also gives mafia a signal NOT to go there unless they need to. No need to block there, no need to cop there; you move on. There are so many ways to slice this!
Games are tossing the dice. The role of designer and reviewer is to make sure there are no glaring holes or inconsistencies or big problems that seriously skew the design (unless we're doing it on purpose). The more I look at this the more strongly I feel that yes, it was balanced fine. Hard? Sure, but it's hard to say how much of that is from the design (I think not much) and how much from the particular events and configuration of this game (I suspect a lot just from looking at spec and where roles fell). One thing changes and this game changes, and that "one thing" could be dozens of moments and events.
so tl;dr
-could there be tweaks? sure
-would the game pass review under almost any conditions? yeah, i think so
-is game balanced? I believe so
there's my cents.
I even doubt myself a little on maybe no elimproof/kingmaker/loved trio because one thing that DOES do is helps mafia figure out where to target with abilities. Yeah, those folks get confirmed and that hurts when it comes to PoE, but it also gives mafia a signal NOT to go there unless they need to. No need to block there, no need to cop there; you move on. There are so many ways to slice this!
Games are tossing the dice. The role of designer and reviewer is to make sure there are no glaring holes or inconsistencies or big problems that seriously skew the design (unless we're doing it on purpose). The more I look at this the more strongly I feel that yes, it was balanced fine. Hard? Sure, but it's hard to say how much of that is from the design (I think not much) and how much from the particular events and configuration of this game (I suspect a lot just from looking at spec and where roles fell). One thing changes and this game changes, and that "one thing" could be dozens of moments and events.
so tl;dr
-could there be tweaks? sure
-would the game pass review under almost any conditions? yeah, i think so
-is game balanced? I believe so
there's my cents.
and while I'm here let me take a small moment to remind you of metal gear you goddamned beautiful traitorous horror of an ocelot
OCELOT IS MY GUY, HOW DID I NOT KNOW
So oh, Ephi, man, PLEASE FRIEND, PLEASE FRIEND do not get down on yourself. Sometimes it just goes that way. It's not you. It's nothing you did. It's just the game!
Sawneeks
little green dog
Think that's where my balance issues/problems/etc etc lay after reading everyone's thoughts and giving it more time.
Sure the elimproof/kingmaker/loved are ones scum wouldn't have to bother killing or RBing but they still confirm/give evidence that can be verified. So even if scum ignores them and goes after the other, better roles you still have the in-thread threat of a confirmed townie being trusted. Which in the right hands is far more deadly than any role and scum now have to pick - do we kill the possible cop or the kingmaker top townie who is steamrolling? Which is a choice to make every single game and comes with the deicision making of the scum team but in this game there wasn't much of a way to stop the multiple avenues of it happening.
My issue here is that there were so many soft confirms or straight confirmed townies that scum wouldn't be able to keep up with it in terms of kills. The triple threat of protection Town has is one thing that would've made a stopped kill more likely and hurt just as much since it would've set us back. The one way to balance it is more strong shots but I think what would've helped here would've been a way for scum to double kill on some nights. Not all, but maybe once or twice to help keep pace with the way town can confirm themselves. Scum could still missplay it and kill the elimproof, the kingmaker, or something more minor with the double kill nights and still be messed up in the long run but there would've been a chance for it. Town still gets their multiple ways of confirming themselves and scum is now much more investigator than before and has to decide correctly to stop the unknown rolling tide that approaches.
karkador
Board Game King
Gossip chat seems especially OP in this scenario.
Like as Macho Cop i kept flopping between scum play and town play to throw the scent off and keep me alive, explicitly because there wasn't gonna be any way to protect me.
But if i had made it into gossip chat i could have told the Town Core all about my results without sacrificing that third shot, and reveal the clue about Z-Beat's booster.
Of course a town gossip can be bad and invite scum, too, but having both cop and gossip has a good chance of a pretty hard swing in town's favor.
Like as Macho Cop i kept flopping between scum play and town play to throw the scent off and keep me alive, explicitly because there wasn't gonna be any way to protect me.
But if i had made it into gossip chat i could have told the Town Core all about my results without sacrificing that third shot, and reveal the clue about Z-Beat's booster.
Of course a town gossip can be bad and invite scum, too, but having both cop and gossip has a good chance of a pretty hard swing in town's favor.
karkador
Board Game King
^^ with that said I did go into a role madness game expecting a lot of swings, so maybe what I'm not seeing is the hard swing potential in scum's favor.
ALSO,
I found that scum struggled with putting together not just believable role claims, but substantial night activity stuff to talk about. In a role madness game where everyone has something to do, I think scum gets very hard pressed to blend in with all the night activity claims.
ALSO,
I found that scum struggled with putting together not just believable role claims, but substantial night activity stuff to talk about. In a role madness game where everyone has something to do, I think scum gets very hard pressed to blend in with all the night activity claims.
Last edited:
The issue here is not that there were too many. The issue really comes from a collected town working together. That's what you can't bust through as scum. A highly coordinated scum team foments more doubt and discord; a disorganized town doesn't trust through those roles, even if one gets proven - we've all seen that before, many times, town just mowing through roles that shouldn't even be doubted and they're killing them anyway.
The double kill you're asking for in most scenarios here is provided by your vigilante. Even with a higher scum percentage here, it's always more likely the vig kills townies. You don't add a double kill in a game with a vig also unless you're trying to rush the game. Kingmaker can also anoint scum. There's another potential extra kill.
The avenue is not just through powers. It's through shaping and controlling the narrative - something the mafia team never got close to doing in this game. And sometimes it just goes that way.
Could the roles have been tweaked in this game? Sure. Is it perfect? Nah. But I'd argue it's a hell of a lot more balanced than some games I've seen - and there's evidence right here in this discussion, in how easily concerns can be countered with other options. Even if that's not to everyone's satisfaction, for all of these potential issues, there is an answer. It just didn't manifest in this game. And that's just how it goes when you're playing games with lots of powers, every time. But I'd hold this game up against any recent game we played with few to no balance complaints. The problem here wasn't balance. It's actually just that town did what town should do, and that's incredibly hard in many games. I cannot see where that empowerment actually comes from roles here. It looks like the unlock there was actually the n1 deaths, which mechanically favored scum by a huge margin - but it was town that benefited, not mafia, because town just simply played a good game working with the information they had that was unlocked by the additional shot. But if you want evidence that an extra kill could have helped you, there it is. N1 was optimal for scum, mechanically - but town read the clues accurately and rolled from there.
In this game, if Hedin doesn't die in the way he does d1, if Donnie shoots Sparks to confirm Zeke - which would have been a valid play based on their claim, to produce a town-cleared Zeke (and another confirm, if we're going for that, and many towns would) - any number of things just change. But instead town came together after d1 and has just made a series of very smart plays and used the tools they had. That was simple deduction. Scum got hosed in response, and I'll tell you this - it's why I keep beating the towncore drum - it is very difficult for anything but an on-the-ball scum team to get through that. You have to get into that core and you have to stay there. It's possible. It's hard. But no single member of the mafia team managed to embed themselves into the town core or even into a trustworthy position. Can't balance for that. So again: sometimes it just goes that way. It sucks. It's demoralizing. No one wants to play a game for many days that seems unwinnable. But the unwinnable condition didn't come from the mechanics of the game. It came from people playing well and using the information they had to identify other town.
TBH, this game was lost by scum from n1. And it's really just because a vig shot that might otherwise been unfortunate helped people read wagons and behavior. Can't balance against optimal play. It would be incredibly frustrating for everyone if town lost a strong game like this because of some mechanic fuckery, and we all know it.
And I'm sorry, Sneeks, I really am, but feeling dissatisfied with how the game went isn't about balance, and that's evidenced here by your focus on more strong shots rather than also adding a ninja shot or two. That would actually be more balanced, but it's not your concern because the tracker died early and thus did not impact the game. QED: it's not balance you want, but to vent. That's fine. But this is why balance talk should wait until feelings die down.
Gossip chat is decidedly not OP here any way you slice it. Gossip chat works only when and if it is used well and happens to involve people willing to work together; in plenty of games, gossip chat goes near unused, is a bastion of suspicion, or a gossip is ignored or killed because we've had scum gossips in the past. Again, both mechanics and community meta need to be considered, there is nothing to indicate a gossip chat is any more or less impactful than any other town-sided chat. Could the combination of gossip and investigative roles be powerful? Sure. But the odds of that happening - the gossip happens to invite the investigative role, they happen to trust each other, they actually listen to each other, they actually work together. It's rare.
Now if we're going to see these moves more consistently from the player base, over time games will naturally move around that and it will shape future designs. But what you're actually suggesting here is that we balance for the possibility of an outlier. I don't think anyone wants that if we follow it to a logical conclusion.
Have you been reading more recent games? I do not think recent history would bear out your statement re: scum there.
Honestly, I just want to point folks at any year of champs - they actually serve as a great example here. They all play the same game setup and mostly mafia simply rolls on everyone because people who don't know each other can't manage to work together. And then in a few shining examples, town does work together and it almost always results in an absolutely brutal takedown of mafia.
Here's what I learned from that: the strongest tool in the town toolbox is the ability to put aside doubt and work together in collective good faith. There's no scum mechanic to balance against that.
Last edited:
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
and this is why you don't let zeke be king
Verelios
Were-elios
I feel like he's just going through it to get more from people in an otherwise empty day, and chaffed becaused he wasn't King'd XD
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
He's working backwards from a conclusion and that's why he's hitting the wrong answer. Turms role isn't a clear at all and that's gotten town into trouble in Fanto games but his actions aren't scum. Like if you look at how Turms was handling Geno when Geno wasn't obviously scum vs. how Geno approached Ephi I think it's really obvious which one is a bus and which one isn't. No one was listening to Turms but he was pushing for that Geno kill
Zippedpinhead
Zip it!
I have wanted to be Andre the giant all game.
i wouldn’t deny him that.
i wouldn’t deny him that.
Zippedpinhead
Zip it!
BTW, this town y’all, this town is so good.
I feel like y’all Sherlock Holmes and Hercules Poirot just rolling in and saying you are scum, you are scum and hitting right each time
I feel like y’all Sherlock Holmes and Hercules Poirot just rolling in and saying you are scum, you are scum and hitting right each time
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Okay it's Wee lol figured it had to be EC or Wee. Turm has spent some time getting twisted up with wifom but he was sitting trying to solve Geno when Ephi was getting offed on day 2 lol might take them a day phase or so but if they don't lose their minds they'll be fine I think.
Well well well..
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Just my thoughts coming out of the game: The big thing I learned after Nightless and quickly during Dad Joke is you never stop looking for town in addition to who can be scum, you need to build both of those lists. I think Sneeks posted something about us all attending a weird town read meeting lmao which ofc it the right play from a scum perspective, you want everyone to doubt each other, but it really was just that that's made this game go so well. Looking at people seriously through your own paranoia and trying to town read them and see if that holds up. The whole "it's a mistake to trust anyone" or "I have no town reads bar confirmeds" thing doesn't wash for me.
Anyway, this was fantastic, this is going to go down as one of my favourite games for sure. And getting to roll the hitman! <3
Anyway, this was fantastic, this is going to go down as one of my favourite games for sure. And getting to roll the hitman! <3
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
I'm really sorry Fate. If it helps, your flip served us really well I think, it meant scum had to spend days and days killing everyone on your train since they weren't able to effectively shade us for moving to a town train last second. It isn't nice to be removed from the game night one though , sorry about that.
YEAH HELL YEAH FIND TOWN
THIS IS THE WAY
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Hahaha who could have taught me all about this day one of Dad Joke :p it stuck with me!
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Zeke wanting to look at HP lol....what was the one thing i asked before day end lol. You don't always want to follow dead town but
Sometimes it's okay. You can do this town!
Sometimes it's okay. You can do this town!
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
Yeah with most of the "find town" mindset people dead it's just a matter of if they can wade through this nonsense and get the last one. basing a read off a player just sniping town the whole game around "well scum said this wagon was pure" is not a good way to find scum
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Putting HP on the table has to believe he's spent the game killing all of the padding around him that hid his position . I think they're going to get there though, if you take that day one vote chart Zeke just posted you can see how they split up, I don't think Wee can escape that. Oj is just sitting out there chilling off wagon.
Zeke telling hp to do some scum hunting when all he's done this game is argue with townies that nailed the scum team on d2
Its absolutely nonsensical that hp is scum, town read completely by me, you and chuggs and then systematically kills us all.
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
If they lose Turms or HP here I think this could be an L. They're the only players left strongly pushing back against zeke (maybe LP but we'll see what he's feeling when he pops in) and I strongly suspect zeke is going to just chain turms into hp into jman twice if he gets his way. Wee just straight wins there
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
ah see ATP you've made the classic "scum would never" argument which we all know you should never do ever and has absolutely not been shown to be successful in this game already.
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Let's gooo
Ephidel
How do you do, fellow mafia?
I laughed.
Yep, HP continues to nail it
Zippedpinhead
Zip it!
HP has been on the ball all game.
All of you townies have.
it’s brilliant, but infuriating,
All of you townies have.
it’s brilliant, but infuriating,
Zippedpinhead
Zip it!
I did what? Let’s see where this goes!In looking at zipped's read of the miller claim I came across this post:
Scum Geno knew Turm's exact role.
Scum Zipped mentioned Turm's exact Flavor name.
Turm, did Zipped come up with the fake name of Jerry for you?
Zippedpinhead
Zip it!
What is Turk’s actual name again?
Zippedpinhead
Zip it!
“Turm’s name”
Ephidel
How do you do, fellow mafia?
This was his claim post.
1 shot kingmaker, whoever I target is the only person who will be able to vote on next day phase, can't target myself
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
The problem is , without flipping the role cop it is worth considering/discussing how scum got the kingmaker name to a level, especially to see if scum try and influence that discussion but imo it doesn't make sense to touch anyone before solved Wee or EC. Anything before that is rooted too much in paranoia or just getting out there on the wifom. There's slots that have played exactly how the other scum did.
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Like Zeke was pushing Turm in case he died at last EoD and I'd have given it some time today if I was alive but inevitably Turm looks good on a Geno read and there's slots that have dodged weighing in on anything still.
Plus I said I felt good about the way Wee came in and didn't make excuses but that has deteriorated day to day. Last day phase they were pushing the "don't turbo, I haven't caught up" thing probably as far as it can go lol
Plus I said I felt good about the way Wee came in and didn't make excuses but that has deteriorated day to day. Last day phase they were pushing the "don't turbo, I haven't caught up" thing probably as far as it can go lol
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
i should have jailed your ass :rofl:
that push was BS, like idek
my town mindset is so different than scum, i just cant see how someone looked at me and thought i was scum
if it was partly from last game(scum) where i ghosted day 1 then i can be understanding but idek
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
You did ghost day one though :cor:
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
The last minute push? At least on my end, it was purely I'm sure the other trains are town and there's at least a shot here. And yeah, I listed in my vig shot pm that you had ghosted end of day and kicked off the train on Hedin and basically just in the event of you being town it would provide us valuable info, which it did. I know that still sucks though. In terms ofnyour actual play, I didn't feel like there was enough there to really judge if I'm being honest. I had got a feel for the other vote options and I didn't have much on you yet.
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
I WAS AT WORK
sadge
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Which is totally fair. Probably a better way to put it isn't that you were absent at EoD but that when you were present you hadn't shared a ton and you did kick off a train that ultimately led to the miselim. It was d1 though so...it just worked out this way. Again, apologies lol
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
seems like i cant play fanto games on the account of me never being around for EoD unless it falls on a saturday or sunday
:mothhands:
:mothhands:
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
Honestly shooting the counter wagon is the correct play
which is why i was so bummed out when i got home and checked the vote count
:rofl
which is why i was so bummed out when i got home and checked the vote count
:rofl
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
to stire things to current events
i hope they catch wee
Go HP Go
i hope they catch wee
Go HP Go
FateShirou
ain't no law when you're drinking the claw
alot people played supper well in this game
LP, HP, Sparks, Zeke, Turm
<insert rock clapping gif>
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Was meaning to comment on this. I don't really like to comment on balance, honestly these games are so wildly variable on how they can play out in the set up, even if there were balance issues you would probably have to run the set up multiple times to actually see those problems properly.
What I did want to say though as a player who was town in DR2, I would wholeheartedly disagree that game had balance issues, or at least that that was why the game was one sided. The game was one sided because scum very successfully got themselves in the town core and stayed in it, and also beyond that town was relatively dysfunctional, everyone basically played in their own little silos at the end and it got us. Anyway, I hope you keep designing games Fanto.
It really ought to be
Zippedpinhead
Zip it!
Fanto keep designing games. This one has been a blast to play.
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
I don’t think so. The Wee camp doesn’t have the votes. HP, Kop, and Turms will probably end up there and if they’re lucky they can get EC and Zbeat but Zeke is the loudest voice there and if it goes to a tie he’ll get one of them to switch because I don’t think any of them are all that confident about it.
Ephidel
How do you do, fellow mafia?
Yes, survives a vote and nobody gets voted out. Usually stops working during acronym time but I've had a version of it before that didn't.
I can see a little something I identify with in his play, but I know, and I think if I didn't (and were town) I might just find it suspicious rather than telling.
If he were to actually get pushed to the point where he has to reveal what he actually is it might just colour people's opinions enough after catching him in the lie to vote him over it -- even twice if needbe. The wikis might say it's often town but there are certain people still in this game who have a familiarity with elim proof scum adjacent roles that might harbour some suspicion over it.
But it's not looking like it will get anywhere near that, honestly.
Chuggernaut
HONK HONK MF
There we go LP. Puzzle it out
Donnie
Mafia, pocketed, or dead N1
Yeah that would be interesting, if he has to change claims. Some of them would definitely vote him immediately. I was asking about what it was because...
I was close! Lol Hogan being.booked to survive an elimination makes so much sense lol
The Wizard
Confidently Incorrect
Yeah miller -> actually elimination-proof could backfire if they decide to resolve jman before endgame. He does seem fairly townread currently.
Turmoil -> jman twice is 2 town deaths + 3 night kills (+lover) = 6 bodies which could get Wee to final 4.