Automata basic design and roster

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
The Roster for Nier Automata on Google Sheets. Just click this link!!! :D


Also the sample Role is 12H! She was the first Yorha Android killed in the opening of the game. I made her a vanilla since sample PMs usually need to be if there are vanillas. But if we want to give her a role since she's not a machine should we make up a role?

Nier: Automata the sequel that's more connected than players will think ;)

Player count: 20
Game type: Bastard

Basic premise: It's the world of Nier: Automata set countless years after Nier: Gestalt. All of humanity has died and all that's left are the machines, androids, and Yorha. However, weird things are happening in the world, and those living in this world have to figure out what.

Like the first game we'll have 14 town, 2 neutrals, and 4 scum... however it'll be two scum teams this time. For that reason our reviewer(s) will have to help us make sure the scum teams and our neuts all have a fair chance of winning as town does lol.

Some of the more bastard like elements:
- 2 scum teams
- A fake cult that is just a neighbor chat lol
- Won't tell the players fully how their rolls work (we can figured out this part together)
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
The roster:

Town:

- 2B: JOAT (1 Forensic Investigator, 2 shot absorb)
- A2: 1 shot vigilante
- Devola and Popola: Doctor (Can only heal machines and androids, will be notified if can't).
- Emil: Vending machine (1 BP, 1 Lightning rod, 1 Alignment cop check, 1 Self roleblock, 1 Double vote, 1 Self vote loss, 1 fishing pole that gives a role fishing check, 1 fancy hat that does nothing.) (items can be negotiated). Items are given at random.
- Pascal: 1 Shot Motivator
- Simone: Captain more info below
- Pod 042: JOAT (1 track, 1 message, 1 commute)
- Captain Servo: 1 shot Gladiator
- Little Robot Cult Leader: Neighborizer
- Child Machine: Vanilla
- Father Machine: Vanilla
- Mother Machine: Vanilla
- Little Sister Machine: Vanilla
- Big Sister Machine: Vanilla

Notes:
- 2B Absorb doesn't work on a killing power (she just dies instead) and can not the neighborizer power. Can discuss what else doesn't counts.
- On Devola and Popola - Willing to make it just androids or just machines or change if they are notified.
-Also Vereeeeeee we need to be automata Devola and Popola to throw of them being in the game we can have cute flavor when they die
- Emil Flavor is: You died in the fog but being you, you got better :D :D :D (hint about fog from first game)

How Captain works:
-Simone will be given generic power descriptions on what powers she can control.

They will be:
- Supportive (Pascal)
- Investigative (042 Track)
- Protective (Devola and Popola)
- Unknown (Emil).

So just the basic description but now the player or the specific power. She will instruct who the player should use their power on and if the player doesn't listen they are RB'd. She will not be notified if they listened or if the player is out of shots as might be the case with Pascal and Pod 042.

We figured Simone shouldn't have access to the killing powers like the gladiator or vig shot, and since 2B is an absorb we figured 2B should be left alone so she doesn't get the captain power LOL.

Can negotiate what else to include like say scum and neutral powers.

How Pod 042 message works:
He can only message 2B or A2 unless both are dead then it is randomized. When using the message his player will select player 1 or 2. He will not be told who the players are or their flavor. This is to give cover for scum since 9S is a fake claim. Also so he doesn't flavor confirm 2B or A2.

How the fake cult works:
Little Robot Cult Leader is a neighborizer that can only recruit players who have Machine in their name. We will not tell the leader what is the requirement for recruitment.

The characters that can be recruited are:
- Child Machine
- Father Machine
- Mother Machine
- Little Sister Machine
- Big Sister Machine

Aka the vanilla town players LOL

They can recruit the machines with the command "BECOME AS GODS".

The cult leader will be told he is town, we can negotiate on that. He will have a neighbor chat.

The members of the fake cult can't tell the thread about their group.

If the cult leader dies and he has successfully recruited a neighbor, then the longest serving neighbor (aka which ever one was recruited first out of those alive) will become the new leader.

If three members have been recruited making for a total of 4 in fake cult chat and all members are alive, then in the main thread the leader can post BECOME AS GODS. If the three living members also post BECOME AS GODS then all powers are roleblocked for the next night phase.

Basically the idea is to make it so everyone and even the members think there's a cult when there isn't. It's just a neighbor chat for the town vanillas.

BTW the sample role PM will be Animal loving Machine who is also vanilla.
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
The Neutrals:

Caim and Angelus (from Drakengard 1): Serial Killer.


Flavor: For some reason after being killed this angry man and his angry dragon found themselves here. Now they want to destroy everything.

Win Con: Being the last survivor. They can kill a player every night and they have one janitor shot to serve as a counter to the FI.

Sleep Beauty: Roleblocker

Flavor: The great computer connected to the villagers of the forest of myth, you have continued to live for so many years. You felt all those you knew die as you have countless eons before, and you will continue to do so forever. Anyone that enters your clutches always falls into a deep sleep.

Win Con: Successfully Role block three players. Will leave the game if completed.

How it works:

She will ask a player a question her player makes up (has to give the answer with the question and it has to be a question that is answerable). If the player gets it wrong, they are Roleblocked.

if this wincon is too hard to enforce with the question phase, then we can modify her to being a roleblocker with a different win con. Still want to incorprate the question stuff if possible.

She asks the question during the day so her victim has all night to answer it. If they get it wrong or do not answer they will be RB'd
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
The Scum Team:

Powers are in progress so help us out :D

Scum team 1: Kill on even nights

Adam: Godfather (counter to alignment cop shot with Emil.
Eve: X Shot strongman (counter to protective powers)

Flavor: They don't care about all the weird stuff going on, they still want to complete their plans.

Scum team 2: Kill on odd nights
Nier and Grimoire Weiss: TBD
Kaine:

Humoring the idea that Nier and Kaine can't kill Emil lol not sure yet. if we do then it'll be for as long as the other scum team is alive. If we do this, then Adam and Eve can't kill Simone.

Flavor: They died once... and became apart of the fog. But they have been given a second chance and a promise that if they can take out the others, they will get what they want most back.

----

Scum teams kill on even and odd nights so town has a fair chance at winning still. Scum teams need protection so was thinking both teams would ahve some kind of protective power, also to the counter the serial killer.

Fake claims (for neutrals as well as they'll need them):

9S
Pod 153
Operator 60
Operator 210
Anemone
Commander
Sarte
Master Swordsmith Masamune
King of the Forest

Adam and eve may get a pass if both are alive and Nier or Kaine has flipped, but still good to have fake claims. The cult leader and Simone will also get a lot of Flak if they claim LOL.
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
So we're going to be Automata Popola and Devola?
yessssss if you want :D It'd keep with what we did for Nier 1: and throw off expectations since peeps might assume the sisters aren't in the game this time.

Option 2 is random NPCs we like. lol
 

Verelios

Were-elios
yessssss if you want :D It'd keep with what we did for Nier 1: and throw off expectations since peeps might assume the sisters aren't in the game this time.

Option 2 is random NPCs we like. lol
Lessss go. Being Automata P&D will be nice thematically.
 
How does town find out about the cult? If members of the cult flip is it noted that they were recruited by the cult?
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
How does town find out about the cult? If members of the cult flip is it noted that they were recruited by the cult?
Sounds like a good way of handling the fake cult lol if we going to treat it like a cult then might as well have dead members reveal it.
Also good luck with the move loki!
The move itself was great the guys we went with were in and out however...

@Verelios

My internet provider fucked us over by canceling our install and we won’t get WiFi till the 7th. Cell reception is fine but I am not looking forward to having this game reviewed while I’m on my phone :/

Please keep going with the review as I can do it, I just need one of you to update the spreadsheet if we make major changes :/
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Sounds like a good way of handling the fake cult lol if we going to treat it like a cult then might as well have dead members reveal it.

The move itself was great the guys we went with were in and out however...

@Verelios

My internet provider fucked us over by canceling our install and we won’t get WiFi till the 7th. Cell reception is fine but I am not looking forward to having this game reviewed while I’m on my phone :/

Please keep going with the review as I can do it, I just need one of you to update the spreadsheet if we make major changes :/
Wow, that blows =/. No problem on my end, keep the questions coming A ;).
 
So firstly it's good to have @OceanicAir on the team :)

Now down to business:
General thoughts:
It's hard if not impossible to give the game a balance pass in its current state, what with the two small scum teams and not all roles being finished. I'd recommend checking out House of Horrors Mafia for a game with a scum team of 2 and HvV2 for a game with multiple scum teams to try and find potential pitfalls to avoid (for example FoD felt they had an unfair disadvantage compared to FoL).

Town:
-I've only played route A of Nier Automata (I really need to go back to it but my backlog is so long!!!) so I'm unsure who can and can't be healed by the doctor, could you make that clear in the design sheet?
-Can Pascal motivate the JOATS and if so how do you decide what ability gets a shot?
-Is Emil's lightning rod used on the night it's received (like the self roleblock) or is it an item (like the alignment shot)?
-The captain targets in the night, how does that work?
-Pod 042 says the commute command protects them for the night, does that mean that unlike a regular commute they can be targeted by other actions (and strong killed)?

Scum:
I think currently scum is at a disadvantage because of their claim game, without any proactive powers there aren't any easy fake claims to do except vanilla but by the end of the game town will probably figure out that all real vanillas can be recruited by the "cult". I also think that with a SK and another scum team running about there's a fair chance of cross kills happening which would be pretty disasterous with scum teams of this size (this isn't necessarily a problem though just something I thought of)

Neutral:
-How is it made clear to 2B that they can't target janitored players?
-How open can the sleeping beauty's question be? Could they just ask for them to guess their favourite number and have the correct answer be mata nui?

Final thoughts:
How much say do you want me and OceanicAir to have, do you want to hear our crazy ideas or for us to just try and help balance and give opinions on yours?
 

Verelios

Were-elios
So firstly it's good to have @OceanicAir on the team :)
Good to have you again OA \o.

Now down to business:
General thoughts:
It's hard if not impossible to give the game a balance pass in its current state, what with the two small scum teams and not all roles being finished. I'd recommend checking out House of Horrors Mafia for a game with a scum team of 2 and HvV2 for a game with multiple scum teams to try and find potential pitfalls to avoid (for example FoD felt they had an unfair disadvantage compared to FoL).
Haha, I was part of the FoD and remember that situation well. The main problem was the disparity in killing methods and protection.

-I've only played route A of Nier Automata (I really need to go back to it but my backlog is so long!!!) so I'm unsure who can and can't be healed by the doctor, could you make that clear in the design sheet?
Yeah, no problem. I can see where you'd be confused if you never played through it before, so we can add a STATUS in role pms to make it clear.

-Can Pascal motivate the JOATS and if so how do you decide what ability gets a shot?
Um. So, he can. Like, he'll motivate Caim and Angelus who have a janitor shot, but for those with more than 1 like 2B and Pod, I'm thinking that what he motivates gets randomised.
-Is Emil's lightning rod used on the night it's received (like the self roleblock) or is it an item (like the alignment shot)?
It's (LR) automatically used on the night it's received, as more of a negative utlility item.

-The captain targets in the night, how does that work?
So, you're right, the command is inputted during the day. We were describing the process for what happens during the night phase and forgot to include when the action gets decided.

-Pod 042 says the commute command protects them for the night, does that mean that unlike a regular commute they can be targeted by other actions (and strong killed)?
Nope, works like a regular commute. Strong kills go by them as do other night actions.

I think currently scum is at a disadvantage because of their claim game, without any proactive powers there aren't any easy fake claims to do except vanilla but by the end of the game town will probably figure out that all real vanillas can be recruited by the "cult". I also think that with a SK and another scum team running about there's a fair chance of cross kills happening which would be pretty disasterous with scum teams of this size (this isn't necessarily a problem though just something I thought of)
Hm, so what you're saying is that you'd like scum to have more proactive powers? Which ones do you mean?

-How is it made clear to 2B that they can't target janitored players?
-How open can the sleeping beauty's question be? Could they just ask for them to guess their favourite number and have the correct answer be mata nui?
--Does it have to be made clear to 2b's player? They'll just get the standard action failed and I suppose they'll know something messed with their shot.

--No, that's an unfair question. The question can be as open as SB likes so long as there is a real, and reasonable possibility for most people to get the answer. So it can't be something like "Who are the top 3 NBA superstars of all time" because that's an opinion.

Final thoughts:
How much say do you want me and OceanicAir to have, do you want to hear our crazy ideas or for us to just try and help balance and give opinions on yours?
I'd appreciate hearing whatever crazy ideas you and OA have after seeing the board, and I'm sure Loki feels similarly.
 
Hm, so what you're saying is that you'd like scum to have more proactive powers? Which ones do you mean?
I think at least one of the following options should be used: (OceanicAir what do you think?)
-Give at least one member of both scum teams have powers which they could possibly build a fake claim off of (even a dodgy one, those work a lot of the time >:D)
-Make it so that there are some vanillas which can't be recruited to the fake cult
-Make it so that some of the scum team can be recruited
-Give scum safe fake claims (though this kind of feels like a bandaid solution)

--Does it have to be made clear to 2b's player? They'll just get the standard action failed and I suppose they'll know something messed with their shot.
It doesn't just with how it was worded in the document made it sound like 2b couldn't even target a janitored player. An action failing works fine.

--No, that's an unfair question. The question can be as open as SB likes so long as there is a real, and reasonable possibility for most people to get the answer. So it can't be something like "Who are the top 3 NBA superstars of all time" because that's an opinion.
Gotcha, maybe a good way to test the idea is to throw some example questions at eachother to see if the role is too easy or too hard to win with.

I'd appreciate hearing whatever crazy ideas you and OA have after seeing the board, and I'm sure Loki feels similarly.
Neat, I'll let you know if I'm hit by any eureka moments
 

Verelios

Were-elios
I think at least one of the following options should be used: (OceanicAir what do you think?)
-Give at least one member of both scum teams have powers which they could possibly build a fake claim off of (even a dodgy one, those work a lot of the time >:D)
-Make it so that there are some vanillas which can't be recruited to the fake cult
-Make it so that some of the scum team can be recruited
-Give scum safe fake claims (though this kind of feels like a bandaid solution)
Okay, I see what you mean now. We can definitely give reasonable powers to Nier and Weiss, I'll have to check with Loki on if she wants to give Adam something extra, and Kaine/Eve are stuck with the bandaid solution I suppose, or vanilla claims.


It doesn't just with how it was worded in the document made it sound like 2b couldn't even target a janitored player. An action failing works fine.
Great.

Gotcha, maybe a good way to test the idea is to throw some example questions at eachother to see if the role is too easy or too hard to win with.
Alright, guess I'll start us off with an easy one.
I put down an empty bottle of Gin and pick up a bottle of Jack. I pour half the Jack into a cup and then pour 1/4th of a vodka bottle into the cup. After drinking the cup, how much more Gin did I drink than Vodka that night? Assume all bottles are the same.

0 because I didn't drink the empty bottle of Gin

Neat, I'll let you know if I'm hit by any eureka moments
Wonderba.
 
Alright, guess I'll start us off with an easy one.
I put down an empty bottle of Gin and pick up a bottle of Jack. I pour half the Jack into a cup and then pour 1/4th of a vodka bottle into the cup. After drinking the cup, how much more Gin did I drink than Vodka that night? Assume all bottles are the same.
That was an easy one :P

Meanwhile I'll attempt something which hopefully isn't googleable

Which antagonist says the line "You don't get to run the world by being fair, you get to run the world by being nasty"
 

Verelios

Were-elios
That was an easy one :P

Meanwhile I'll attempt something which hopefully isn't googleable

Which antagonist says the line "You don't get to run the world by being fair, you get to run the world by being nasty"
giphy.gif


New rule, if it's free answer then you need to give a hint.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Thank you for all the questions Aeleus. Because I’m stuck on mobile I can’t really respond right now so I’ll let vere take charge (he may have responded already I see someone else commented lol)

As for how much powers you reviewers have? I can be really stubborn on some things happening (why I made sure to explain what stuff is negotiable) but we really welcome ideas that make our game better and balanced c:

One thing about the scum possibly being killed by fellowing scum, that’s why in my scum post I suggested both teams having some protection to help them survive both the other team and the SK.

Your question about the docs:

Basically all of the machines, servo, Pascal, Simone, and pod count as machines.

2b, a2, Adam, Eve, Devola and popola themselves, count as androids from what I understand since the world of automata is basically machines and animals lol.

Emil, Caim and Angelus, Sleeping Beauty, Nier and Weiss, and Kaine count as non machine or android.

Basically the sisters are cops for the neuts and one scum team, which is why I was thinking they could only protect machines or only protect androids.

—-

Good point about the scum not being able to claim vanilla as the cult leader can prove they aren’t, thisnis why I was leaning to making fake claims for both neuts and the mafia, tho since Simone is town maybe Adam and Eve can get a pass if Nier or Kaine has flipped. I’d be down to giving them powers they can pass as town if that’d help lol
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Update may get WiFi before the weekend may not. I’ll process the big posts when I have WiFi >>

If it’s not happening I’ll just figure something out
 

OceanicAir

4 8 15 16 23 42
Alright just wanna get some initial thoughts down just looking at the roles, I'll give another post afterwards regarding discussion or questions.

Can a remaining scum get some kind of buff after the death of their teammate? Because a lunch/sk compound on d1/n1 would kinda suck.

Not 100% sure if I'm reading Nier/Weiss' role correctly or is it just incomplete regarding the odd night kill.

As a whole I think town v non-town has a good chance to be competitive but I'm not sure about each individual non-town team having a good chance to win.

Adam and Eve get an advantage of being possibly protected by the doctor while the other team doesn't.

The godfather role seems to be really useful with only 1 (up to two I guess).

What happens if Pascal gets an item in terms of novitiation. Can they use it on themselves?

How long do you expect me game to go, 5 or 6 days?

I'll get to more when I'm decently awake lol
 
Well, it's pretty edgy so I'll narrow it down to Fire Emblem, Metal Gear solid and Pokemon >.>.
It is one of those...

Regardless I think we can say that I'd be 1/3 towards my victory condition right now. So some changes to impliment
-Sleeping beauty needs to give proof to the gamerunner that they aren't just BSing (I wasn't FYI)
-Gamerunner gets authority to reject questions for any reason (a nice get out of jail free card for you in case Sleeping beauty tries to abuse loop holes)

As a whole I think town v non-town has a good chance to be competitive but I'm not sure about each individual non-town team having a good chance to win.

Adam and Eve get an advantage of being possibly protected by the doctor while the other team doesn't.
Also this is a much better explanation of what I've been thinking :>
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Alright just wanna get some initial thoughts down just looking at the roles, I'll give another post afterwards regarding discussion or questions.

Can a remaining scum get some kind of buff after the death of their teammate? Because a lunch/sk compound on d1/n1 would kinda suck.
Good question, a conditional power isn't bad in this case.

Not 100% sure if I'm reading Nier/Weiss' role correctly or is it just incomplete regarding the odd night kill.
You're reading it right, it's still incomplete since we want to give him something protective but also works as a fake claim, after going over the balance.

As a whole I think town v non-town has a good chance to be competitive but I'm not sure about each individual non-town team having a good chance to win.
Right, hm. I think the conditional release you talked about and the reasonable fake claim powers A talked about earlier can help with that.

Adam and Eve get an advantage of being possibly protected by the doctor while the other team doesn't.
Completely my mistake, I was writing the status down off of memory, and forgot that Loki and I agreed to them being classified as androids since they sublimated past machine life.

The godfather role seems to be really useful with only 1 (up to two I guess).
Can you walk me through this thought?What would you propose here?

What happens if Pascal gets an item in terms of novitiation. Can they use it on themselves?
Hmmmm? Items are used immediately on receipt.
How long do you expect me game to go, 5 or 6 days?

I'll get to more when I'm decently awake lol
Well, normal length, so 5-8 days possibly.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
It is one of those...

Regardless I think we can say that I'd be 1/3 towards my victory condition right now. So some changes to impliment
-Sleeping beauty needs to give proof to the gamerunner that they aren't just BSing (I wasn't FYI)
-Gamerunner gets authority to reject questions for any reason (a nice get out of jail free card for you in case Sleeping beauty tries to abuse loop holes)
Good points, I agree with them both being necessary.

Also,
Which of the three was it, haha
 
Good points, I agree with them both being necessary.

Also,
Which of the three was it, haha
It was Hun one of the villains in the pokemon special "The Legend of Thunder!" such a goofy line, it has always stuck with me
 

Verelios

Were-elios
It was Hun one of the villains in the pokemon special "The Legend of Thunder!" such a goofy line, it has always stuck with me
Super surprised, I couldn't remember if I watched that or not, but googling the synopsis I apparently did. Good taste.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I’m getting my WiFi later today my time in the evening so I’ll look over everything and answer what you guys have said when I have it.

However... proposal on Adam’s power + fake claim (again haven’t what you have said)

Make Adam a x shot scum doc. Fake claim is he is a machine doctor with a roll that fits that claim (in this world Devola and Popola would be Android docs and aren’t notified if their target isn’t a android or we think of something else for that lol. To help Adam’s case he could be the android doc but then town androids don’t have actual protection) but he can heal anyone.

He’s x shot so it isn’t too broken, but because Eve has the strong man shots, they have some protection while he hasn’t shots as long as the unprotected brother doesn’t get killed.

This works because now Adam has a fake claim and can’t even pocket people bu claiming to have protected them.

The tracker is their downfall, if he claims to have protected town when the track shot saw him self target or target Eve instead.

If having a scum doc be a godfather is too broken then we can remove the modifier and given it to someone else lol
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
It's hard if not impossible to give the game a balance pass in its current state, what with the two small scum teams and not all roles being finished. I'd recommend checking out House of Horrors Mafia for a game with a scum team of 2 and HvV2 for a game with multiple scum teams to try and find potential pitfalls to avoid (for example FoD felt they had an unfair disadvantage compared to FoL).
LOL the reason we submitted our game for review was we were running out of ideas lol, but again the main goal is to make sure every faction can achieve the win con as long as things go well. That's where'll need your guys help.

THIS is why I really wants the scum teams to have some kind of protection lol to help with everything going on, but we need to not have them be OP.
-Can Pascal motivate the JOATS and if so how do you decide what ability gets a shot?
Like Vere said it will be randomized for JOATs. option 2 is we don't have some of their shots be unmotivatible.

If the Janitor shot can be motivated, then the FI one should be too. However I don't think the Absorb should be motivatiable lol especially since if Pascal uses it on 2B when she has them, she'll get a motivate shot too.

That's something we should consider actually. lol

With Pod 042... his Track should be, the message too, but do we want to do the commute too???
-Is Emil's lightning rod used on the night it's received (like the self roleblock) or is it an item (like the alignment shot)?
Like Vere said, it's used the same night.
-The captain targets in the night, how does that work?
Sorry about that, I didn't realize captain powers work during the day LOL. I make sure to change that LOL.
-Pod 042 says the commute command protects them for the night, does that mean that unlike a regular commute they can be targeted by other actions (and strong killed)?
It's a normal Commute like Vere said, It's just a shot like peeps have done.
Scum:
I think currently scum is at a disadvantage because of their claim game, without any proactive powers there aren't any easy fake claims to do except vanilla but by the end of the game town will probably figure out that all real vanillas can be recruited by the "cult". I also think that with a SK and another scum team running about there's a fair chance of cross kills happening which would be pretty disasterous with scum teams of this size (this isn't necessarily a problem though just something I thought of)
Talked about this before, but I have a slight bandaid solution... originally the sample PM was going to be Animal loving Machine as a vanilla... but what if it was a Android we aren't listing as a fake claim (if we can decide on one) ooooh what about one of the yorha agents that dies in the opening aerial battle.

We can make her a vanilla still. This will give players the impression that it isn't just machines that can be vanillas especially since Father Servo who is a machine has a power.

That means that scum can claim vanilla but not a machine if that info has been revealed.
-How is it made clear to 2B that they can't target janitored players?
Like Vere said, we will tell her that she got no results.
-How open can the sleeping beauty's question be? Could they just ask for them to guess their favourite number and have the correct answer be mata nui?
The idea was to make it a question with an answer and that the player has to give the answer with the question. We'll probably run by the question with gamewatcher chat to see what they think of it's fairness if it passes our inspection. But we can put in other restrictions if needed.
Yeah, no problem. I can see where you'd be confused if you never played through it before, so we can add a STATUS in role pms to make it clear.
We will definitely include that info in the Role PMs. One idea would be with fake claims like my scum doc suggestion is to have the claim say the power works on specific types of falvors like androids only or machines only. We should plan our scum fake claims accordingly based on this idea.
I think at least one of the following options should be used: (OceanicAir what do you think?)
-Give at least one member of both scum teams have powers which they could possibly build a fake claim off of (even a dodgy one, those work a lot of the time >:D)
-Make it so that there are some vanillas which can't be recruited to the fake cult
-Make it so that some of the scum team can be recruited
-Give scum safe fake claims (though this kind of feels like a bandaid solution)
These are some good ideas.

I personally like the idea of giving scum powers they can pass as fake claims. After all we have to make it up to the scum teams since they are just teams of two, by loading them up on powers as long they aren't broken.
Gotcha, maybe a good way to test the idea is to throw some example questions at eachother to see if the role is too easy or too hard to win with.
LOL I like this idea. Now I need to think of a good question.
Alright, guess I'll start us off with an easy one.
I put down an empty bottle of Gin and pick up a bottle of Jack. I pour half the Jack into a cup and then pour 1/4th of a vodka bottle into the cup. After drinking the cup, how much more Gin did I drink than Vodka that night? Assume all bottles are the same.
LOL that question is too easy, but if SB asks it, it's their loss.
That was an easy one :P

Meanwhile I'll attempt something which hopefully isn't googleable

Which antagonist says the line "You don't get to run the world by being fair, you get to run the world by being nasty"
That's a beautiful question.
giphy.gif


New rule, if it's free answer then you need to give a hint.
LOL I'd be fine with that.
Can a remaining scum get some kind of buff after the death of their teammate? Because a lunch/sk compound on d1/n1 would kinda suck.
LOL since each team has 2 members I'd be down with that. I don't want a repeat of Nier 1 where I was constantly terrifed about Hansel or Gretal dying and getting even more beefy after Scum was already stomping town, >> but this seems fair lol. We'll shop and work on something good.
Adam and Eve get an advantage of being possibly protected by the doctor while the other team doesn't.
right... this is why I've been wanting the scum teams to have protective powers as I have said LOL. Your point has made me realize that maybe instead of Adam being a scum doc like I proposed, what if we make that for Nier >>; Then Adam can be a GF still .
As a whole I think town v non-town has a good chance to be competitive but I'm not sure about each individual non-town team having a good chance to win.
That's why we need to work on it >:3 I want all my roles to do well.
What happens if Pascal gets an item in terms of novitiation. Can they use it on themselves?
He can't use it on Emil's items. Only powers that are x shot and allowed.
How long do you expect me game to go, 5 or 6 days?
LOL I have no expectations on how long the game will last.
Regardless I think we can say that I'd be 1/3 towards my victory condition right now. So some changes to impliment
-Sleeping beauty needs to give proof to the gamerunner that they aren't just BSing (I wasn't FYI)
-Gamerunner gets authority to reject questions for any reason (a nice get out of jail free card for you in case Sleeping beauty tries to abuse loop holes)
oooh I do like the idea of of the player giving us proof it can be answered lol. Sounds like a reasonable way of making sure it's fair beside there being an answer.
 
Coincidentally there's a fair chance I'll be running a mini with two scum teams of two this season, that might be useful

here's the set up https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Fire_and_Ice
---------------------------
Talked about this before, but I have a slight bandaid solution... originally the sample PM was going to be Animal loving Machine as a vanilla... but what if it was a Android we aren't listing as a fake claim (if we can decide on one) ooooh what about one of the yorha agents that dies in the opening aerial battle.

We can make her a vanilla still. This will give players the impression that it isn't just machines that can be vanillas especially since Father Servo who is a machine has a power.

That means that scum can claim vanilla but not a machine if that info has been revealed.
This sounds like a good idea
right... this is why I've been wanting the scum teams to have protective powers as I have said LOL. Your point has made me realize that maybe instead of Adam being a scum doc like I proposed, what if we make that for Nier >>; Then Adam can be a GF still .
Not sure scum doctor is a great idea given there's actually another doctor in the game, but having Nier be some form of protective seems interesting.
That's why we need to work on it >:3 I want all my roles to do well.
The unattainable dream we all share, sadly the meanies seem to always get at least one PR before they can have their fun >:(
LOL I have no expectations on how long the game will last.
It'd definitely be a good idea if someone found best case scenarios for how long it would take each faction to win and I say someone because
A) I am lazy
B) It is sleep time for those in europe now
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
This sounds like a good idea
Okay then o7 I'll watch the opening game cutscenes when we do role Pms and pick a random killed Yorha agent LOL.

There still a risk the mafia will fake claim vanilla and town won't believe them because the machines have shown as vanilla so far, but Servo, Simone and the Role PM will serve as a counter.

I def want to give scum some powers they can use as covers tho, like having Nier be a protective power that could just straight up be claimed as a town role.
Not sure scum doctor is a great idea given there's actually another doctor in the game, but having Nier be some form of protective seems interesting.
I was thinking it'd be okay for him to be a scum doc because Devola and Popola could be android docs, and Neir and weiss could be a doc that has a fake claim saying they are a machine doc. Their fake claim flavor could be something that'd make sense for that role too.

Plus it'd work for Devola and Popola to be android only since they repair androids in Automata.

If Nier is the doc then Eve still can counter them with his strong shots (something to consider).

This leaves the town machines at the risk of dying, but Pod 042 has a commute. That leaves just Father Servo, Pascal and Simone as machine powers who aren't protected but we can debate on that lol. There's also the cult leader, but if he has recruited someone then they'll take his place.

Plus if Devola and Popola only heal androids then we can keep in that they are notified if their target isn't an android, since there are 10 town powers that'd give them the same result as our neutrals, and Nier scum team for not being an android. Seems like a good way of having them being a counter to scum android fake claims (not to self give Nier scum team and Neuts a mixture of androids and machines), while not making it unfair to the neuts and Nier team.

If the sisters keep their notification but can heal machines and androids, then that really makes it hard for Nier team and Neuts to have a chance, so having them only heal Androids might be the solution.

Adam and Eve can be protected by the sisters, but we should still consider giving them extra protection as well, like a BP or reflect just as extra protection to the SK and other team.

Actuallyyyyyy let me think about something in a new post about this.
It'd definitely be a good idea if someone found best case scenarios for how long it would take each faction to win and I say someone because
A) I am lazy
B) It is sleep time for those in europe now
Vere is really great at figuring that stuff out :D :D :D

We went with scum teams alternating kills to help keep town deaths low since the SK makes things more complicated.
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
If we are going to list players by what they are as Machine, Android, other. We should have a power that affects people under a certain category, and the main way of doing that is having the sisters be a doctor that can only heal one type of flavor.

That way Nier can be scum doc and claim to heal the other flavor type when he actually isn't affected by it.

Let me put peeps into categories first.

Android:
1. 2B- JOAT
2. A2- Vig
3. Devola and Popola- Specialized Doc
4. Adam- GF
5. Eve- Strong

2 scum 3 town, 5 powered. Pool a bit a small.

Machine:
1. Pascal- Motivator
2. Simone- Captain
3. Pod 042- JOAT
4. Father Servo- Gladiator
5. Little Robot Cult Leader
6. Child Machine
7. Father Machine
8. Mother Machine
9. Little Sister machine
10. Big Sister Machine
11. Sleeping beauty maybe??? (She's a computer after all)

10 town 1 neut, 6 powered. Town protected more in this case but leaves the town doc vulnerable and most of scum counts as non machine.

Other:
1.Caim and Angelus: Human and Dragon
2. Neir and Weiss: Replicant and book
3. Kaine: Replicant and gestalt.
4. Emil: Genetically modified Human

3 scum 1 town, 4 powered. Pool too small to work with LOL. Caim also has a BP and Nier may be scum doc.

Emil has no protection no matter who is a doc... lol so should he have a BP or is that too much for town?

This means:

If Devola and Popola are android docs they will have a smaller pool that includes scum, but can keep themselves alive along with two town powers. Scum will have an easier time hiding as well, but the pool of non androids might be too big.

Ratio of peeps they can heal vs can't:

5:15

If Devola and Popola are machine docs
they will have a mostly all town pool to work with but can't heal themselves and this makes it harder for the scum players to hide under fake claims. They can claim androids at the very least... but this leaves some strong town powers vulnerable.

Ratio of peeps they can heal vs can't:

11:9

If Devola and Popola are just machine and android docs,
Nier can't claim doc so will need different protective power. 3 scum and one neutral can be protected by Devola and Popola. This makes it really hard for scum to hide behind fake claims as they can't even claim one or the other.

Ratio of peeps they can heal vs can't:

16:4


Conclusion:
Keeping Devola and Popola as is really unfair to scum and only way to make it fair is for them to be normal docs, but then we can't have them be flavor cops which defeats what we were going for.

Personally I'd like for them to be Machine docs. It leaves themselves, 2B, and A2 in the open but in general this covers most of town while giving scum still a chance to hide as they can claim android (which is true for Adam and Eve)

Nier can claim android doc should give Kaine a machine claim to match.

Adam and Eve also can't be protected by the town doc, so will need a solution for them.

I was actually thinking Adam could fake claim 9S and we could make him their protective power based on that with a second power that fits the 9S claim.

I'm pretty committed to Scum Doc Nier LOL and i think it is a bit fair since Eve will have strong shots. This mean Adam team can still get at Nier team as long as they have shots, but Nier team also possibly protected from SK and vig shot.

Actually if the doc can be countered by the Strong... since Kaine will be a ninja... is there a protective power that we could be as being countered by a Ninja shot???

I know that's not a normal modifier for Mafia but what if Adam has some short of self defense shot where he kills whoever is attacking him before he can be killed, but since Kaine is a ninja she can still kill him.

The issue with this is of course our SK and the town vig... but Caim and Angelus have a BP (flavor is Angelus is protecting Caim with her scales) so if no one has targeted Caim he'd be safe.

Doesn't help A2 much tho LOL.

What do you guys think about all this?
 
Last edited:

Verelios

Were-elios
Town: 14
Neutral: 2
Scum: 2/2

Best case

Town Win
D1-Lunch scum
N1- Doctor Protect/NK scum

14 town/2 neutral/2 scum
D2-Lunch scum
N2-Protect/Miss(RB or commute)/NK(Vig) last scum

14 town/2 neutral/1 scum
D3-Lunch scum/neutral if scum is dead
N3- (SB fulfills WC)/NK blocked

14 town/1 neutral
D4- lunch neutral (win game)

Best for Nier and Kaine scum win
D1-town lunch
N1-NK town/NK town

11 town/2 neutral/4 scum
D2-town lunch
N2-NK T/NK T/Vig T

7 town/2 neutral/4 scum
D3: Lunch T
N3: NK T/NK T/ (SB completes WC)

4 town/1 neutral/4 scum
D4: Lunch Adam or Eve
N4: NK T/NK T

2 town/1 neutral/3 scum
D5: Lunch Adam or Eve
N5: NK T/NK T

0 town/1 neutral/2 scum
D6: (Win)
 
So currently I have a load of bad ideas but I think this might be a good change to impliment
-replace the 1-shot alignment check with a 1-shot track
-Make adam a x-shot ninja instead of a godfather

This would make is so both scum teams have a way of dealing with a track/FI instead of adam only countering a cop check locked behind RNG. Also links more roles together which should make interesting interactions more likely.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
<.<
>.>

I suppose 2B's absorb on pod 042 would get a random shot back right?

Sorry for the brief pause, me and OA had a sudden coincidental burst of inspiraction for our drakenguard 3 mafia

Edit: And can emil give out dupilcates?
2B can't absorb the commute I believe, but other than that, yeah. Hm, @lokiduck refresh the stock, have three of each like a vending machine or just unique products?

D3 has such amazing music I'm tempted to play it for a while again since you mentioned it, loved the novella too. Zero is just a baller protag, crass and class in one. Looking forward to seeing your game design.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
So currently I have a load of bad ideas but I think this might be a good change to impliment
-replace the 1-shot alignment check with a 1-shot track
-Make adam a x-shot ninja instead of a godfather

This would make is so both scum teams have a way of dealing with a track/FI instead of adam only countering a cop check locked behind RNG. Also links more roles together which should make interesting interactions more likely.
Two ninjas you mean, hmmm?
 
D3 has such amazing music I'm tempted to play it for a while again since you mentioned it, loved the novella too. Zero is just a baller protag, crass and class in one. Looking forward to seeing your game design.
Alas I was making a joke about stealing your design ;)
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I suppose 2B's absorb on pod 042 would get a random shot back right?
Edit: And can emil give out dupilcates?
2B can't absorb the commute I believe, but other than that, yeah. Hm, @lokiduck refresh the stock, have three of each like a vending machine or just unique products?
- It would depend on which shot O42 uses on 2B.

If he messages her over A2, then she gets a message shot (042 only being able to message 2b or A2 if one is still alive is is actually a counter to 2B's absorb and also why she's a 2 shot lol) if he uses his track on her, she gets one too if she still has an absorb.

- I was personally thinking Emil only has one of each item, but I could be talked into having multiple of each. Whatever seems fair to the scum teams still being able to win possibly lol.
So currently I have a load of bad ideas but I think this might be a good change to impliment
-replace the 1-shot alignment check with a 1-shot track
-Make adam a x-shot ninja instead of a godfather

This would make is so both scum teams have a way of dealing with a track/FI instead of adam only countering a cop check locked behind RNG. Also links more roles together which should make interesting interactions more likely.
I'm totally down for this. This means town has access to three powers (more if motivated/multiple track shots in vending machine) that can be countered by both scum teams and one neutral one time.

Ninja wouldn't be too bad for Adam as well. That means we still need to figure out scum's protections.
 
One of each item makes the vending machine less random and therefore more easy to balance so I'm a fan of that route.
- It would depend on which shot O42 uses on 2B.

If he messages her over A2, then she gets a message shot (042 only being able to message 2b or A2 if one is still alive is is actually a counter to 2B's absorb and also why she's a 2 shot lol) if he uses his track on her, she gets one too if she still has an absorb.
It is only after reading this that I understand how the absorb works haha, interesting power
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
One of each item makes the vending machine less random and therefore more easy to balance so I'm a fan of that route.
o7 Then we shall keep it that way.
It is only after reading this that I understand how the absorb works haha, interesting power
Yep. It was Vere's idea actually :D

2B can't absorb killing powers or the neighborizer power. We also made the captain in such a way that she can't command 2B which means 2B won't get the captain shot ever.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
If we are going to list players by what they are as Machine, Android, other. We should have a power that affects people under a certain category, and the main way of doing that is having the sisters be a doctor that can only heal one type of flavor.

That way Nier can be scum doc and claim to heal the other flavor type when he actually isn't affected by it.

Let me put peeps into categories first.

Android:
1. 2B- JOAT
2. A2- Vig
3. Devola and Popola- Specialized Doc
4. Adam- GF
5. Eve- Strong

2 scum 3 town, 5 powered. Pool a bit a small.

Machine:
1. Pascal- Motivator
2. Beauvoir- Captain
3. Pod 042- JOAT
4. Father Servo- Gladiator
5. Little Robot Cult Leader
6. Child Machine
7. Father Machine
8. Mother Machine
9. Little Sister machine
10. Big Sister Machine
11. Sleeping beauty maybe??? (She's a computer after all)

10 town 1 neut, 6 powered. Town protected more in this case but leaves the town doc vulnerable and most of scum counts as non machine.

Other:
1.Caim and Angelus: Human and Dragon
2. Neir and Weiss: Replicant and book
3. Kaine: Replicant and gestalt.
4. Emil: Genetically modified Human

3 scum 1 town, 4 powered. Pool too small to work with LOL. Caim also has a BP and Nier may be scum doc.

Emil has no protection no matter who is a doc... lol so should he have a BP or is that too much for town?

This means:

If Devola and Popola are android docs they will have a smaller pool that includes scum, but can keep themselves alive along with two town powers. Scum will have an easier time hiding as well, but the pool of non androids might be too big.

Ratio of peeps they can heal vs can't:

5:15

If Devola and Popola are machine docs
they will have a mostly all town pool to work with but can't heal themselves and this makes it harder for the scum players to hide under fake claims. They can claim androids at the very least... but this leaves some strong town powers vulnerable.

Ratio of peeps they can heal vs can't:

11:9

If Devola and Popola are just machine and android docs,
Nier can't claim doc so will need different protective power. 3 scum and one neutral can be protected by Devola and Popola. This makes it really hard for scum to hide behind fake claims as they can't even claim one or the other.

Ratio of peeps they can heal vs can't:

16:4


Conclusion:
Keeping Devola and Popola as is really unfair to scum and only way to make it fair is for them to be normal docs, but then we can't have them be flavor cops which defeats what we were going for.

Personally I'd like for them to be Machine docs. It leaves themselves, 2B, and A2 in the open but in general this covers most of town while giving scum still a chance to hide as they can claim android (which is true for Adam and Eve)

Nier can claim android doc should give Kaine a machine claim to match.

Adam and Eve also can't be protected by the town doc, so will need a solution for them.

I was actually thinking Adam could fake claim 9S and we could make him their protective power based on that with a second power that fits the 9S claim.

I'm pretty committed to Scum Doc Nier LOL and i think it is a bit fair since Eve will have strong shots. This mean Adam team can still get at Nier team as long as they have shots, but Nier team also possibly protected from SK and vig shot.

Actually if the doc can be countered by the Strong... since Kaine will be a ninja... is there a protective power that we could be as being countered by a Ninja shot???

I know that's not a normal modifier for Mafia but what if Adam has some short of self defense shot where he kills whoever is attacking him before he can be killed, but since Kaine is a ninja she can still kill him.

The issue with this is of course our SK and the town vig... but Caim and Angelus have a BP (flavor is Angelus is protecting Caim with her scales) so if no one has targeted Caim he'd be safe.

Doesn't help A2 much tho LOL.

What do you guys think about all this?
Alsoooooo what about this stuff :D :D :D
 
Alsoooooo what about this stuff :D :D :D
Don't give emil a BP, it's fine to have a player who can't be protected.

I agree that Devola and Popola as machine doc/cops seems like the best option. One protective role which is countered by ninjas is the keymaker but I think we've only seen it once in our community and it was a scum power.

I'm a bit unsure how the roster will look if both scum teams end up with a protective power (yes I know this is my fault :P) but I'll withold judgement till we've got a full roster.

I am tired so had bad idea, fair warning
A worry I have which might turn out to be completely unearned is that as 3/4 of the non-machine/android are non-town they might look mighty suspicious if revealed/claim as that. So the bad idea is to have one of them actually be a machine who suddenly woke up with the memories of the related character, feels like that's the kind of craziness which fits the franchise. You were warned.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Don't give emil a BP, it's fine to have a player who can't be protected.
o7 Sounds good.
I agree that Devola and Popola as machine doc/cops seems like the best option. One protective role which is countered by ninjas is the keymaker but I think we've only seen it once in our community and it was a scum power.
So Devola and Popola can be machine docs for now.

I think a scum protective power being countered by a ninja shot would work for the fact that Adam and eve have a counter to the scum doc as long as they have strong shots, so why not let Kaine and Nier have a counter with Kaine's ninja shots?
I'm a bit unsure how the roster will look if both scum teams end up with a protective power (yes I know this is my fault :P) but I'll withold judgement till we've got a full roster.
I get it may be unfair, but with a SK and two scum teams we need something I feel. lol Plus we need to work on good scum fake claims c:<
I am tired so had bad idea, fair warning
A worry I have which might turn out to be completely unearned is that as 3/4 of the non-machine/android are non-town they might look mighty suspicious if revealed/claim as that. So the bad idea is to have one of them actually be a machine who suddenly woke up with the memories of the related character, feels like that's the kind of craziness which fits the franchise. You were warned.
I'd be down for that actually :o We could even do it with both Kaine and Nier. It'd solve their protection power kind of (since it's dependent on the sisters wanting to protect them...) and could switch things again to have Adam have a fake claim as the android doc >> (they'd still need protection after all.

If we don't want to make an entire scum team both machines, we could just make Kaine that. Nier could be some bullshit involve Weiss lol.

I guess what determines a lot of this is:
- How much do we want scum to have for protection?
- What are we giving them as options for fake claims?
- Do we give them fake powers to help with said claims?

...

@Aeleus I just had a terrible idea as well. We make Kaine... into... Kaine Machine (fake claim animal loving machine fake power is vanilla). She can be recruited by the cult leader because she has Machine in her name. And she can claim vanilla which works perfectly because she's a ninja so as long as she isn't caught using the factional kill, her claim is believable.

This also helps with fake claims, as if she flips it puts doubt on any machine with machine in their name, She'll also know about the one night Roleblock if she's in the chat, which means her team can plan accordingly.

The only thing with her being in the chat is that she has a chance of becoming the leader >> since it'd be weird if she's skipped over when she was recruited before anyone else still alive.

Additionally we were worried for scummies claiming vanilla and then getting lunched if they can't be recruited, but one of the possible fake claims is Sarte who is a machine. We can have him as a vanilla machine fake claim option that can't be recruited since machine isn't in his name. This fake claim plus the sample PM will help with any attempts to claim vanilla by scum.
 
I think a scum protective power being countered by a ninja shot would work for the fact that Adam and eve have a counter to the scum doc as long as they have strong shots, so why not let Kaine and Nier have a counter with Kaine's ninja shots?
I don't think that Team Nier neccesarily need a counter like the strong shot because they have the advantage of being the first to kill, but you can give any protective role a "only effects unmodified factional kills" addendum.

@Aeleus I just had a terrible idea as well. We make Kaine... into... Kaine Machine (fake claim animal loving machine fake power is vanilla). She can be recruited by the cult leader because she has Machine in her name. And she can claim vanilla which works perfectly because she's a ninja so as long as she isn't caught using the factional kill, her claim is believable.

This also helps with fake claims, as if she flips it puts doubt on any machine with machine in their name, She'll also know about the one night Roleblock if she's in the chat, which means her team can plan accordingly.

The only thing with her being in the chat is that she has a chance of becoming the leader >> since it'd be weird if she's skipped over when she was recruited before anyone else still alive.
I'd like to hear everyone elses opinion on it first but early morning me (ok actually 9:30 AM me) thinks it's a cool idea, definitely helps with claiming.

I guess what determines a lot of this is:
- How much do we want scum to have for protection?
- What are we giving them as options for fake claims?
- Do we give them fake powers to help with said claims?
-I don't know!!! :'(
-With kaine as quasi totally but not really vanilla and the example role PM not being a machine, vanilla becomes a much safer claim for evil. I'd give both teams at least three possible flavour claims and the SK one (maybe a moose?) making clear what type of being each claim is (machine, android ect).
-I don't think fake powers will be necessary in a world where the cult leader can't so easily suss out the real vanillas, but hopefully the powers of nier and adam would allow their players to come up with their own ideas for fake roles.
 
If you end up giving both scum teams a protective power though I'd recommend switching out emil's BP for something like a key
A key can be used by players to lock themselves inside their house for one night, protecting them and making them unable to use any night actions themselves (besides the action of using the key). Once a key has been used, it is forfeited for the rest of the game. If a player with an unused key is targeted by a Jailkeeper, the key will be automatically used to prevent that player from being jailed. Ninja and Strongman roles are able to visit players using keys.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I don't think that Team Nier neccesarily need a counter like the strong shot because they have the advantage of being the first to kill, but you can give any protective role a "only effects unmodified factional kills" addendum.
Trueeee. We may be fine then there lol. I'll see what the others think.
I'd like to hear everyone elses opinion on it first but early morning me (ok actually 9:30 AM me) thinks it's a cool idea, definitely helps with claiming.
:D :D :D

Also I realized Kaine may try to convince them to use the RB not on their kill night if it can be passable so they can still use their kill on their designated night lol.
-I don't know!!! :'(
-With kaine as quasi totally but not really vanilla and the example role PM not being a machine, vanilla becomes a much safer claim for evil. I'd give both teams at least three possible flavour claims and the SK one (maybe a moose?) making clear what type of being each claim is (machine, android ect).
-I don't think fake powers will be necessary in a world where the cult leader can't so easily suss out the real vanillas, but hopefully the powers of nier and adam would allow their players to come up with their own ideas for fake roles.
You have a point about the fake powers.

I like the idea of each team having three claims to work with. Kaine machine should be given the Animal Loving Machine claim, but we can plan accordingly with that.

While Nier can get at least two options.

I do definitely think Caim and Angelus should be given fake claims as well since there's no way they can safely... Sleeping Beauty too...

Adam and Eve tech may be able to get away with claiming their names since Simone is town and especially if Nier or Kaine have flipped, but might be good to give them androids like Anemone, one of the operators, or the Commander since they are Androids after all.

I'm a little wary to give scum any machine claims besides Kaine Machine (if we go with that) and Sleeping Beauty too since SB is one as well... but we probably should give one option to each team just to be fair to the sisters sussing them out... >> Not sure how you guys feel on that.

Either way best idea is to give them options and let them come up with their own ideas off of what we give, just maybe give Kaine some set machine options lol.
 
Last edited:
Trueeee. We may be fine then there lol. I'll see what the others think.

:D :D :D

Also I realized Kaine may try to convince them to use the RB not on their kill night if it can be passable so they can still use their kill on their designated night lol.

You have a point about the fake powers.

I like the idea of each team having three claims to work with. Kaine machine should be given the Animal Loving Machine claim, but we can plan accordingly with that.

While Nier can get at least two options.

I do definitely think Caim and Angelus should be given fake claims as well since there's no way they can safely... Sleeping Beauty too...

Adam and Eve tech may be able to get away with claiming their names since Beauvoir is town and especially if Nier or Kaine have flipped, but might be good to give them androids like Anemone, one of the operators, or the Commander since they are Androids after all.

I'm a little wary to give scum any machine claims besides Kaine Machine (if we go with that) and Sleeping Beauty too since SB is one as well... but we probably should give one option to each team just to be fair to the sisters sussing them out... >> Not sure how you guys feel on that.

Either way best idea is to give them options and let them come up with their own ideas off of what we give, just maybe give Kaine some set machine options lol.
Agree with all of the above (and am also wary about giving scum machine claims) but the SK needs to be able to fake flavour claim moose, I think it is very important to the overall game balance.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Agree with all of the above (and am also wary about giving scum machine claims) but the SK needs to be able to fake flavour claim moose, I think it is very important to the overall game balance.
lol then we'll let the SK fake flavor claim Moose :laughing: It'd honestly work since in the first game we included minor characters like the Fisherman and Neun even lol.

So for fake claims we should focus on having fake claims based around non machines, with a few like Sarte thrown in here or there.

Actually Sarte might be perfect for Sleeping Beauty. He's that machine that keeps asking questions and thinking a lot, soooo it seems like a good cover for machine based Sleeping beauty right???

Basically where I'm thinking: (if no power listed, we'll let the scummies thinking of a claim)

Kaine machine: Animal loving machine - Vanilla
Sleeping beauty: Sarte -
Caim and Angelus: Moose -
Nier + Weiss: 2 android options
Adam and Eve: 3 android options

I personally thing the Commander and 9S might work for Adam... however if we do want to make a fake claim of a android doc, 9S might work actually.

The Operators and Anemone can be divided up between the two teams might be fun to even split the two operators between them specifically so if one scum claims an operator and gets lunched, peeps don't auto assume on the other even if true.

for extra machine claims we just have Pod 153, or maybe even other bosses depending. lol The King of the Forest is also an option... Might work as a vanilla claim lol and one that can't be recruited.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Sorry for missing this. What are your feelings on it Verelios?
I think it can work. I just hadn't thought of two ninjas before and it surprised me.

Agreed on the Kaine Machine decision above, and it contrasts well with the other team's GF.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I think it can work. I just hadn't thought of two ninjas before and it surprised me.

Agreed on the Kaine Machine decision above, and it contrasts well with the other team's GF.
We are getting rid of the GF tho LOL. Part of why we have two ninjas is because we are replacing the Emil cop shop with a tracker shot.
 
Two ninjas you mean, hmmm?
I think it can work. I just hadn't thought of two ninjas before and it surprised me.

Agreed on the Kaine Machine decision above, and it contrasts well with the other team's GF.
We are getting rid of the GF tho LOL. Part of why we have two ninjas is because we are replacing the Emil cop shop with a tracker shot.
Oh, I didn't know we were ditching it, but that makes sense if there's no cop shot.
We can always find some way to compensate Adam later in place of the GF thing.
tenor.gif

I can't stress enough that anything I've mentioned (besides basic balance tweaks) are just ideas, in my mind changes aren't made until the design sheet itself is updated. And I think it would be foolish for you both to not properly discuss what you want to keep and change before doing so. There really needs to be a conversation (one which hopefully includes all four of us, OA might have seen something I missed, ect).
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
tenor.gif

I can't stress enough that anything I've mentioned (besides basic balance tweaks) are just ideas, in my mind changes aren't made until the design sheet itself is updated. And I think it would be foolish for you both to not properly discuss what you want to keep and change before doing so. There really needs to be a conversation (one which hopefully includes all four of us, OA might have seen something I missed, ect).
LOL

The reason why I was talking like that is because I thought it was a good idea and we went with the change immediately. That's usually how it works with our game planning (tho we usually update the gamesheet when it gets more set in stone. While we are spitballing ideas it's kept as it was before until we get approval from everyone).

But basically how our gameplanning goes is:

Me: Here's an idea for A.
Vere: I like that, but what about X.
Me: Okay (x is now is a thing)
Reviewer: What about Y?
Us: Okay! (Y is now a thing.)

What I'm saying is if we like your guys ideas we are probs running with them immediately unless we do not like them or it's realized this change is too unbalanced.

Like right now Kaine is totally Kaine machine in my head since we came up with the idea, and she is recruitable to the cult. But if say OA were to come in here and think it's too unfair to town and there needs to be a counter, then we'd do it LOL.

ALSO Aeleus. I will 100% let you know if I'm not interested in doing something. LOL Vere can attest to this. Not going to go in on the specifics, but in another review it took us several days to wrap up a review because one reviewer was really wanting to make one specific change and I was 100% against it and wasn't going to budge.

So far all your ideas have been great and I can't wait to see what OA thinks when he looks over everything c:

Vere and I may be the gamerunners and the ones that got the basic shit together, but we love getting ideas from reviewers as you guys are what is going to make this game balanced and super awesome even.

Like I never would have thought about the key. And since you have suggested it I have loved it.

Additionally our first game had a weird twist on handling cops (aka a town role cop and a gossip that dies if he chats with 2 scum) so having no cops in this game would be fun.

I like the idea of town having access to like three tracker like powers (one is RNG'd and another is specifically for corpses) and scum having x shot counters to said power.

The key also works as being a counter to kill actions but not the x shot powers again lol.
 

Verelios

Were-elios
We can always find some way to compensate Adam later in place of the GF thing.
Awww yes.
tenor.gif

I can't stress enough that anything I've mentioned (besides basic balance tweaks) are just ideas, in my mind changes aren't made until the design sheet itself is updated. And I think it would be foolish for you both to not properly discuss what you want to keep and change before doing so. There really needs to be a conversation (one which hopefully includes all four of us, OA might have seen something I missed, ect).
I see where you're coming from A, and I appreciate it. I worked as an editor for a while after college so I know how awkward the position is when you're between a person's vision and your suggestions. For me, I see the review thread and reviewers as a refining process, where we have our core ideas that I don't want to budge on and then the supplementary building blocks that get built around it. The design is a core idea for me, how it's structured are the building blocks. Like Loki said above, we're more than happy to hear yours and OA's suggestions because those are more possibilities available to us when we want to build the game. I wouldn't have thought of two ninjas and more tracks but that fits, and is legit cool.
LOL

The reason why I was talking like that is because I thought it was a good idea and we went with the change immediately. That's usually how it works with our game planning (tho we usually update the gamesheet when it gets more set in stone. While we are spitballing ideas it's kept as it was before until we get approval from everyone).

But basically how our gameplanning goes is:

Me: Here's an idea for A.
Vere: I like that, but what about X.
Me: Okay (x is now is a thing)
Reviewer: What about Y?
Us: Okay! (Y is now a thing.)

What I'm saying is if we like your guys ideas we are probs running with them immediately unless we do not like them or it's realized this change is too unbalanced.

Like right now Kaine is totally Kaine machine in my head since we came up with the idea, and she is recruitable to the cult. But if say OA were to come in here and think it's too unfair to town and there needs to be a counter, then we'd do it LOL.

ALSO Aeleus. I will 100% let you know if I'm not interested in doing something. LOL Vere can attest to this. Not going to go in on the specifics, but in another review it took us several days to wrap up a review because one reviewer was really wanting to make one specific change and I was 100% against it and wasn't going to budge.

So far all your ideas have been great and I can't wait to see what OA thinks when he looks over everything c:

Vere and I may be the gamerunners and the ones that got the basic shit together, but we love getting ideas from reviewers as you guys are what is going to make this game balanced and super awesome even.

Like I never would have thought about the key. And since you have suggested it I have loved it.

Additionally our first game had a weird twist on handling cops (aka a town role cop and a gossip that dies if he chats with 2 scum) so having no cops in this game would be fun.

I like the idea of town having access to like three tracker like powers (one is RNG'd and another is specifically for corpses) and scum having x shot counters to said power.

The key also works as being a counter to kill actions but not the x shot powers again lol.
Our process is basically exactly like Loki said, haha.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I see where you're coming from A, and I appreciate it. I worked as an editor for a while after college so I know how awkward the position is when you're between a person's vision and your suggestions. For me, I see the review thread and reviewers as a refining process, where we have our core ideas that I don't want to budge on and then the supplementary building blocks that get built around it. The design is a core idea for me, how it's structured are the building blocks. Like Loki said above, we're more than happy to hear yours and OA's suggestions because those are more possibilities available to us when we want to build the game. I wouldn't have thought of two ninjas and more tracks but that fits, and is legit cool.
Exactly c:

As i said, we'll let you know if there's something we don't want to change LOL. For me right now the main things I really want in the game is the fake cult and our neuts tho I'm willing to discuss how they are handled c: . I was even willing to make the game have one mafia team if we could balance out having two >:3 However I def like the idea of Kaine Machine and the ninjas and tracks, so as far as I'm concerned, as long as OA doesn't have a massive problem with those things they are canon now >:3

I even updated the sheet (and I will change it again if we want to change something back). Really what we need to decide on is:

- what power Nier will have?

- Do Adam and Eve need some form of protection?

- Do we give one scum member doc shots:
-if it's Adam or Eve could make them android doc shots even to help with fake claim. It'd be a good replacement for the GF passive as it'd mean both teams would have basically one solid fake claim. It'd also work since Kaine Machine can be saved by the sisters.

----

Once we have these questions figured out we can fine tune our fake claims more:

- For example, Caim can claim Moose, but do we let his player figure out what powers to claim?

- Same with Sarte for Sleeping Beauty? Honestly since town doesn't have an RB, SB's player could probably get away with claiming their power as Sarte >> maybe. I'd be okay with just giving them the flavor claim of Sarte but no power suggestions.
 
Last edited:
Glad to hear it, back to the review!
giphy.gif


- what power Nier will have?
I think Nier and Kaine's roles need to be slightly weaker than Adam and Eve's as they have the advantage of getting their kill off first. For Nier's actual power I've had the idea of a 2-shot jailkeeper stuck in my head, not for any particularly good reason, it was just stuck in there.

- Do Adam and Eve need some form of protection?
- Do we give one scum member doc shots:
-if it's Adam or Eve could make them android doc shots even to help with fake claim. It'd be a good replacement for the GF passive as it'd mean both teams would have basically one solid fake claim. It'd also work since Kaine Machine can be saved by the sisters.
With such small teams a protective power would be very useful but I'd say a Android doc would basically mean they had an infinite shot BP which switched between them each night, if they were to be a doc I'd add some kind of additional detail, for example after successfully protecting a player they can't target that player again.

Once we have these questions figured out we can fine tune our fake claims more:

- For example, Caim can claim Moose, but do we let his player figure out what powers to claim?

- Same with Sarte for Sleeping Beauty? Honestly since town doesn't have an RB, SB's player could probably get away with claiming their power as Sarte >> maybe. I'd be okay with just giving them the flavor claim of Sarte but no power suggestions.
Given this game isn't role madness as long as their flavour claim can't be proven completely bogus they don't need a role claim to go with it. However giving the both one is far from game breaking so if you and vere want to then go for it.

In terms of really crazy ideas I've had while walking the dog recently:
-What if instead of there being two ninjas the shot was tied to their faction abilities, that would allow either player to carry out the shot but after one of the team dies town can learn that the other one might have/had a ninja shot in their quiver. (also means there wouldn't be two of the same role)
-Once we've balanced the evils to be fairly equal in strength if we think each team doesn't stand a chance by themselves against town you could possibly use this role:
Peer Pressured Machine (neutral)
survivor with a 1-shot BP vest but if they lose their vest they will join the faction that attacked them, gaining their factional abilities and joining their factional chat (if there isn't one already one will be created).

Can join any faction thanks to the town vig but is most likely to be recruited by one of the three evil teams, boosting their team size by one (can also join cult because that's a great role)
 
Oh also super important you need to give both your scum teams unique cool team names so town can figure out which team they belong to.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I think Nier and Kaine's roles need to be slightly weaker than Adam and Eve's as they have the advantage of getting their kill off first. For Nier's actual power I've had the idea of a 2-shot jailkeeper stuck in my head, not for any particularly good reason, it was just stuck in there.
I could get behind that. As long as they have a chance of winning it makes perfect sense. I could also see Nier as a jailer. it'd be a reasonable fake claim even lol (not that we'd tell them that).

So if peeps agree we can make him a Jailer c:
With such small teams a protective power would be very useful but I'd say a Android doc would basically mean they had an infinite shot BP which switched between them each night, if they were to be a doc I'd add some kind of additional detail, for example after successfully protecting a player they can't target that player again.
ooooh I like that. That restriction plus him being like a 2 or 3 shot (since can be motivated) might make the power protective without being too broken.
In terms of really crazy ideas I've had while walking the dog recently:
-What if instead of there being two ninjas the shot was tied to their faction abilities, that would allow either player to carry out the shot but after one of the team dies town can learn that the other one might have/had a ninja shot in their quiver. (also means there wouldn't be two of the same role)
Hmm that could work. It'd also mean a team isn't dead in the water if they lost the player with the ninja shots. Plus it would def help town get why there are so many track shots lol. The question is then, what powers should Adam and Kaine have in their place?

Adam is an easy solution since he's basically the android doc already lol.

Would be kind of amusing to make Kaine a goon just to fit the fact she's recruitable lol. But still might be good to have a power.
-Once we've balanced the evils to be fairly equal in strength if we think each team doesn't stand a chance by themselves against town you could possibly use this role:
Peer Pressured Machine (neutral)
survivor with a 1-shot BP vest but if they lose their vest they will join the faction that attacked them, gaining their factional abilities and joining their factional chat (if there isn't one already one will be created).

Can join any faction thanks to the town vig but is most likely to be recruited by one of the three evil teams, boosting their team size by one (can also join cult because that's a great role)
:D :D :D I like this idea a lot.

Originally we wanted a 20 player game with 14 town, 2 neutrals, and 4 scum like Nier: Gestalt the difference is there are two scum teams, but having a 3rd neutral that could join any faction would be amazing honestly.

I like that he can be recruited by three different factions since we have so many killing rolls, and he's in a way a counter to the SK until he's recruited because the SK would waste a night recruiting him if he still has his BP at that point.

Plus love having another possible member of the fake cult that may be working against town's interests.

Scum having a chance at a extra member or the SK possibly getting a partner sounds awesome (since more likely to happen than the vig shooting him lol) tho with the SK they'd share the SK kill so we only have one SK a night >>

Also there's always a chance that Peer Pressured Machine gets NK'd by the strong killed so that balances it out a bit I guess.

Oh also super important you need to give both your scum teams unique cool team names so town can figure out which team they belong to.
Yeah that was the plan.

Off the top of my head I'd probably go with

Those out to make a new world: Adam and Eve

Those out to bring back the old world: Nier + Weiss and Kaine machine.

It fit both teams flavor wise and would explain why they are opposing teams.

Adam and Eve want to make a new world for all machine kind while Nier and Kaine Machine want to get back the world they lost.
 
Last edited:
ooooh I like that. That restriction plus him being like a 2 or 3 shot (since can be motivated) might make the power protective without being too broken.
Given there's only one motivate I don't think it will have a huge impact on this role, I'd say at least 3 shots but I don't think unlimited would be that broken either.

Yeah that was the plan.

Off the top of my head I'd probably go with

Those out to make a new world: Adam and Eve

Those out to bring back the old world: Nier + Weiss and Kaine machine.

It fit both teams flavor wise and would explain why they are opposing teams.

Adam and Eve want to make a new world for all machine kind while Nier and Kaine Machine want to get back the world they lost.
Well I'll tick unique cool team names off my list :)
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Given there's only one motivate I don't think it will have a huge impact on this role, I'd say at least 3 shots but I don't think unlimited would be that broken either.
Trueeeee with the restriction that if they successfully protect a target they can't do it again might make it okay if his shots are unlimited LOL.
Well I'll tick unique cool team names off my list :)
:D
 

Verelios

Were-elios
@Aeleus Probably a stupid question since I understand the implication, but can you explain how the ninja shot should be tied to the faction kill? Is it like a one shot communal ability for each mafia team?

Nier seems good as a jailkeeper, and the fix so Android doc can't heal the same person twice is beautiful (does this count unsuccesful protects as fulfilled shots? From the wording it seemed like it was everyone gets one sucessful protect).

I'm also all for making Kaine Machine more beefy than a goon, haha.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
@Aeleus Probably a stupid question since I understand the implication, but can you explain how the ninja shot should be tied to the faction kill? Is it like a one shot communal ability for each mafia team?
Basically yeah. Both teams have one ninja shot they can use instead of the factional kill so either member can use it. That means even if one scum dies, they still have it instead of losing that chance with the ninja dying.
Nier seems good as a jailkeeper, and the fix so Android doc can't heal the same person twice is beautiful (does this count unsuccesful protects as fulfilled shots? From the wording it seemed like it was everyone gets one sucessful protect).
Then Nier a jailkeeper :D :D :D

As for the android doc the way I understand it works is we give him an x shot probs. He can use the shot on Eve for example every time, but if he successfully protects Eve, then Eve can't be protected anymore (will be notified). Same goes for himself.

Or any other Android LOL. Which works too lol. What I like about the power is he can actually claim it as a role and say "oh I helped (whoever claims 2B/A2) on night x.

Speaking of his fake claim suggestion should be 9S. XD He's an android doc that can protect himself and other androids because he's providing back up. ;)

This also means they should also have Anemone as another fake claim suggestion.
I'm also all for making Kaine Machine more beefy than a goon, haha.
Agreed lol.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Updated fake claim suggestions:

Kaine machine: Animal loving machine - Vanilla
Sleeping beauty: Sarte -
Caim and Angelus: Moose -
Nier + Weiss: King of the Forest, Master Swordsmith Masamune, Operator 210, Jack Ass
Adam and Eve: 9S, Anemone, Operator 60, Commander White

(Operator 60 also works for the android doc maybe???)

Do we need more android claims for Nier and Weiss so they don't get caught by Devola and Popola? I gave them two machines and one android, so I feel he has a good chance LOL.

Do we need one machine claim for adam and eve? or is it okay to give them android ones since Adam player may claim android doc, and if he gets caught protecting eve, eve claiming machine might >> make things complicated. Can if you want it fair like with Nier.
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Some stuff I was thinking about the fake cult...

1. The neighbor chat will be called "little robot cult."
2. Little Robot Cult Leader will be told his command to recruit in his role PM, but not anything else. This way if he flips town and scum will get the deets about the fake cult, but not all the specifics. Will also not be told he can only recruit characters with machine in their name.
3. The additional command and rules will posted in first post of neighbor chat. They are:
- Do not talk about cult chat in main thread. If you do you will be mod killed.
- If Little Robot Cult Leader dies, a recruited member that is still alive and was recruited the earliest will become the new cult leader.
- If the cult leader successfully recruits three members and 4+ members are still alive, the Cult Leader can post the command BECOME AS GODS in the main thread during the day. If three other members type the same command then they will activate an event. (When it activates we will tell them it's a roleblock that affects everyone.
4. Any cult members that die will be revealed to be a cult member. Basically, Player has died, Role PM, Player was a cult member.


Questions I have:
1. Should maybe the cult leader know he's town but be under gag order that he can't tell anyone (not even the cult) he is? If not how do we handle that.
2. Cults usually have their own wincon lol this is just a neighbor chat, but should we give them a fake one to make it semem ore real. One proposal is the night Roleblock is actually the fake wincon. They will be told when they do the command that 1. they have roleblocked everyone for the night. and 2... lol that's you are not a cult but hey you worked together to make this happen \o/ oh and still don't tell anyone in thread you are a cult member.

If we make the roleblock the fake wincon that seems reasonable because it would take a minimum the little robot cult leader 3 nights to get enough people, but there's a high chance of death by SK or mafia, getting roleblocked by Simone/Nier, or the cult leader picking the wrong target which is honestly the most likely.

3. Will cult members flip as town? One idea is they flip as cult members but when the roleblock happens, maybe the info changes to reveal they were town??? or does that give the game away lol?

----
The main thing is we want the cult to use it as a chance to scum hunt, but also be a distraction and come off as a threat. That is part of why they do the roleblock command in the main thread and why we want to keep flip info to a minimum to tell town there's a cult without giving too much away.
 
Last edited:
@Verelios see loki's response :)

Do we need more android claims for Nier and Weiss so they don't get caught by Devola and Popola? I gave them two machines and one android, so I feel he has a good chance LOL.

Do we need one machine claim for adam and eve? or is it okay to give them android ones since Adam player may claim android doc, and if he gets caught protecting eve, eve claiming machine might >> make things complicated. Can if you want it fair like with Nier.
It depends on whether you two want scum to be able to slip up by claiming the wrong type of being, if you're fine with that I am too as long as we ensure it's balanced by the end of the review process.

Some stuff I was thinking about the fake cult...

1. The neighbor chat will be called "little robot cult."
2. Little Robot Cult Leader will be told his command to recruit in his role PM, but not anything else. This way if he flips town and scum will get the deets about the fake cult, but not all the specifics. Will also not be told he can only recruit characters with machine in their name.
3. The additional command and rules will posted in first post of neighbor chat. They are:
- Do not talk about cult chat in main thread. If you do you will be mod killed.
- If Little Robot Cult Leader dies, a recruited member that is still alive and was recruited the earliest will become the new cult leader.
- If the cult leader successfully recruits three members and 4+ members are still alive, the Cult Leader can post the command BECOME AS GODS in the main thread during the day. If three other members type the same command then they will activate an event. (When it activates we will tell them it's a roleblock that affects everyone.
4. Any cult members that die will be revealed to be a cult member. Basically, Player has died, Role PM, Player was a cult member.
I'm fine with all of this, perhaps when a cult member dies their role PM remains unchanged but after it you post a highlighted message like X had been recruited by the cult, you never said their alignment had been changed after all ;)

Questions I have:
1. Should maybe the cult leader know he's town but be under gag order that he can't tell anyone (not even the cult) he is? If not how do we handle that.
2. Cults usually have their own wincon lol this is just a neighbor chat, but should we give them a fake one to make it semem ore real. One proposal is the night Roleblock is actually the fake wincon. They will be told when they do the command that 1. they have roleblocked everyone for the night. and 2... lol that's you are not a cult but hey you worked together to make this happen \o/ oh and still don't tell anyone in thread you are a cult member.

If we make the roleblock the fake wincon that seems reasonable because it would take a minimum the little robot cult leader 3 nights to get enough people, but there's a high chance of death by SK or mafia, getting roleblocked by Simone/Nier, or the cult leader picking the wrong target which is honestly the most likely.

3. Will cult members flip as town? One idea is they flip as cult members but when the roleblock happens, maybe the info changes to reveal they were town??? or does that give the game away lol?

----
The main thing is we want the cult to use it as a chance to scum hunt, but also be a distraction and come off as a threat. That is part of why they do the roleblock command in the main thread and why we want to keep flip info to a minimum to tell town there's a cult without giving too much away.
1. I definitely think the cult leader should know they're town, I imagine it'd be an extremely fustrating experience otherwise. I think that cult should know their alignment hasn't changed (else kaine machine might cause some unfortunate hijinks), but the gag order on revealing that should make it difficult to communicate to town, plus who would believe the cult is town anyway lol
2. Not much to say here that I haven't said on other points but I think everyone would have figured out who the cult was when a bunch of them posted BECOME AS GODS lol.
3. Again I think it would be an unfortunate game if town spent a huge amount of the game hunting a non existant cult, optimally imo they should be spooked when a cult member flips recruited but should be able to refocus when/if the cult leader dies, at which point cult becomes largely harmless (especially as non town is hiding among them)
 

Verelios

Were-elios
Basically yeah. Both teams have one ninja shot they can use instead of the factional kill so either member can use it. That means even if one scum dies, they still have it instead of losing that chance with the ninja dying.
That's a cool idea that I hope gets more play in other games.

Then Nier a jailkeeper :D :D :D

As for the android doc the way I understand it works is we give him an x shot probs. He can use the shot on Eve for example every time, but if he successfully protects Eve, then Eve can't be protected anymore (will be notified). Same goes for himself.

Or any other Android LOL. Which works too lol. What I like about the power is he can actually claim it as a role and say "oh I helped (whoever claims 2B/A2) on night x.

Speaking of his fake claim suggestion should be 9S. XD He's an android doc that can protect himself and other androids because he's providing back up. ;)

This also means they should also have Anemone as another fake claim suggestion.
Hm, you're right. I was just worried about optics for Android Doc but realistically it'll be an uphill climb for them to immediately target an android.

9s is also a good choice for a fake claim here.

Agreed lol.
So we are in agreement \o.
[/QUOTE]
Updated fake claim suggestions:

Kaine machine: Animal loving machine - Vanilla
Sleeping beauty: Sarte -
Caim and Angelus: Moose -
Nier + Weiss: King of the Forest, Master Swordsmith Masamune, Operator 210
Adam and Eve: 9S, Anemone, Operator 60, Commander White

(Operator 60 also works for the android doc maybe???)

Do we need more android claims for Nier and Weiss so they don't get caught by Devola and Popola? I gave them two machines and one android, so I feel he has a good chance LOL.

Do we need one machine claim for adam and eve? or is it okay to give them android ones since Adam player may claim android doc, and if he gets caught protecting eve, eve claiming machine might >> make things complicated. Can if you want it fair like with Nier.
I think those are enough. While the machine doc is a threat to A/E claims, the Android doc is a threat to Nier and Weiss so it evens out.
Some stuff I was thinking about the fake cult...

1. The neighbor chat will be called "little robot cult."
2. Little Robot Cult Leader will be told his command to recruit in his role PM, but not anything else. This way if he flips town and scum will get the deets about the fake cult, but not all the specifics. Will also not be told he can only recruit characters with machine in their name.
3. The additional command and rules will posted in first post of neighbor chat. They are:
- Do not talk about cult chat in main thread. If you do you will be mod killed.
- If Little Robot Cult Leader dies, a recruited member that is still alive and was recruited the earliest will become the new cult leader.
- If the cult leader successfully recruits three members and 4+ members are still alive, the Cult Leader can post the command BECOME AS GODS in the main thread during the day. If three other members type the same command then they will activate an event. (When it activates we will tell them it's a roleblock that affects everyone.
4. Any cult members that die will be revealed to be a cult member. Basically, Player has died, Role PM, Player was a cult member.


Questions I have:
1. Should maybe the cult leader know he's town but be under gag order that he can't tell anyone (not even the cult) he is? If not how do we handle that.
2. Cults usually have their own wincon lol this is just a neighbor chat, but should we give them a fake one to make it semem ore real. One proposal is the night Roleblock is actually the fake wincon. They will be told when they do the command that 1. they have roleblocked everyone for the night. and 2... lol that's you are not a cult but hey you worked together to make this happen \o/ oh and still don't tell anyone in thread you are a cult member.

If we make the roleblock the fake wincon that seems reasonable because it would take a minimum the little robot cult leader 3 nights to get enough people, but there's a high chance of death by SK or mafia, getting roleblocked by Simone/Nier, or the cult leader picking the wrong target which is honestly the most likely.

3. Will cult members flip as town? One idea is they flip as cult members but when the roleblock happens, maybe the info changes to reveal they were town??? or does that give the game away lol?

----
The main thing is we want the cult to use it as a chance to scum hunt, but also be a distraction and come off as a threat. That is part of why they do the roleblock command in the main thread and why we want to keep flip info to a minimum to tell town there's a cult without giving too much away.
Hm.

1. We should tell the cult leader they're town, but we can also put in the first post of the thread that the cult's objectives are to gather 4+ members, and after using the command in thread their entire world will change. Which is technically true, the best kind of true. It's probably best to make it vague so it isn't an out and out fake WC.

2. Like A mentioned, we should append them being in a cult to the end of their death pm.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
It depends on whether you two want scum to be able to slip up by claiming the wrong type of being, if you're fine with that I am too as long as we ensure it's balanced by the end of the review process.
That's basically what I'm thinking. My stance is if one team are getting a mix of android and machines then both are to balance it out so both have a chance of getting counted.

However with Kaine machine being a machine and Adam and Eve being androids makes me feel that Adam and eve should only have Android claims, and Nier should only get machine ones... the only issue with that is Nier can be found out by the machine docs, while Adam and eve can't because Adam is the android doc and all they have to do to counter the machine doc is claim android.

Soooo wouldn't it be fair to give Nier a mix or do we have the fact he can be found by the machine docs be a counter to him?

I'm okay with that since Kaine should be able to deep wolf without him if she needs too. The issue is if she was lunched allready.
I'm fine with all of this, perhaps when a cult member dies their role PM remains unchanged but after it you post a highlighted message like X had been recruited by the cult, you never said their alignment had been changed after all ;)
;) I see what you mean and I like that.
1. I definitely think the cult leader should know they're town, I imagine it'd be an extremely fustrating experience otherwise. I think that cult should know their alignment hasn't changed (else kaine machine might cause some unfortunate hijinks), but the gag order on revealing that should make it difficult to communicate to town, plus who would believe the cult is town anyway lol
2. Not much to say here that I haven't said on other points but I think everyone would have figured out who the cult was when a bunch of them posted BECOME AS GODS lol.
3. Again I think it would be an unfortunate game if town spent a huge amount of the game hunting a non existant cult, optimally imo they should be spooked when a cult member flips recruited but should be able to refocus when/if the cult leader dies, at which point cult becomes largely harmless (especially as non town is hiding among them)
1. Yeah I agree that the cult leader should know he's town, which was why I was liking the idea about him having a gag order lol. all recruited members will be told they have joined a cult in the link to the cult but not that their alignment has changed LOL. We should actually never answer this question if they ask if it has >:3 They'll figure it out LOL.

So yeah let's do it, everyone keeps their alignment but can't say something along the lines of "the cult isn't a cult!" The Cult is town!" because revealing the cult is town is talking about the cult, and that's a no no.

Still think the leader should have a specific rule that he can't even tell his members he's town tho. LOL

2. That's kind of the idea lol. If they can pull off the action then basically they reveal themselves to town, which should cause a panic in town since the cult can't talk about what happened lOL but people might realize that the cult is town if cult members have flipped town and just the fact they outed themselves like that.

3. True, what they won't know is that a new cult leader is appointed LOL. But even then that works, because the cult members will realize their leader who wasn't able to tell them his alignment was actually town and that they aren't a cult but a neighbor chat :D :D :D

Part of why i want the alignment gag order specifically for the leader is so people don't fully trust him but def will if he flips :D :D :D
I think those are enough. While the machine doc is a threat to A/E claims, the Android doc is a threat to Nier and Weiss so it evens out.
The machine doc isn't really much of a threat to A/E unless they claim a machine? I feel Adam should be good with claiming android doc and since there are flavors that are machine or android, peeps might think there is a world with two docs LOL.
1. We should tell the cult leader they're town, but we can also put in the first post of the thread that the cult's objectives are to gather 4+ members, and after using the command in thread their entire world will change. Which is technically true, the best kind of true. It's probably best to make it vague so it isn't an out and out fake WC.

2. Like A mentioned, we should append them being in a cult to the end of their death pm.
Trueeee we could do it like that. I can make a sample post.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Sample starting post for the Cult thread which will be called something like "The Little Robot Cult." We can change it if that makes the flavor too obvious:

Hello \o/ Welcome to the cult thread!

Your humble leader is: Player name.

Now here are some ground rules.

1. Do not talk about the cult in the main thread! \o/
2. If you leader dies, the earliest recruited player that is still alive will become the new one. \o/

Objective: Recruit 4+ members. Then at any point in a day phase if your leader posts the command BECOME AS GODS in the main thread.

If 3 other members post the command BECOME AS GODS in the main thread. If you do this something will happen. \o/
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I should point out that why I want the gag order on little robot cult leader is so his members don't fully trust him. They know they are still town becuase they weren't told their alignment has changed, but they don't know if he or other members are. This will keep enough suspicion in the thread going to create a healthy ecosystem you see in most neighborhood chats.

Plus this slight suspicion means the members may not do the command in the main thread if they don't trust him.

However... the same affect could happen even if the leader goes... "I'm town guys" because most peeps will be "are you sure???" or "it's a bastard game" LOL so maybe we don't need that XD
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I just realized... shouldn't Sleeping Beauty ask her question before the night phase starts? We need to give her victim a chance to answer the question and the window after action lock before day start is too small.

Basically her power is like a gossip in that she can ask a question during the day phase and then the victim has until action lock to answer. If they don't answer, they'll be RB'd.
 
I just realized... shouldn't Sleeping Beauty ask her question before the night phase starts? We need to give her victim a chance to answer the question and the window after action lock before day start is too small.

Basically her power is like a gossip in that she can ask a question during the day phase and then the victim has until action lock to answer. If they don't answer, they'll be RB'd.
Yep it should work like that (good to see one of us at least has common sense)
 

OceanicAir

4 8 15 16 23 42
Hi again, I took another look at the sheet and I'm not entirely sure how Sleeping Beauty works with the questions. I'm just not sure how you'll be able make them non-googleable. Are there constraints that the answerers will be honor-bound to follow? What about riddles that could have another solution?

I do like the setup though as it seems like it can go a lot of different ways. I can't help at all with the role-claims since I've only more or less just opened the game to try it out on xbox gamepass on android (heh)
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Hi again, I took another look at the sheet and I'm not entirely sure how Sleeping Beauty works with the questions. I'm just not sure how you'll be able make them non-googleable. Are there constraints that the answerers will be honor-bound to follow? What about riddles that could have another solution?
Basically durign the day phase her player has to submit a question with an answer and be able to show that it can be answerable like Aeleus used in their example (we mainly hope that the answer is good enough).

If we approve of the question we will ask the player during the night phase and give them until actions lock to answer.

As for whether it is googlable or not... that is up to the player LOL. I'm fine with allowing riddles as well. All we need is for them to give the riddle/question and the answer and if we don't get how they connect, they give us proof or make a different one.
I do like the setup though as it seems like it can go a lot of different ways. I can't help at all with the role-claims since I've only more or less just opened the game to try it out on xbox gamepass on android (heh)
Neat :D Glad you like it then.

Since you are playing lol can you tell us the name of one of the Yorah agents killed in the beginning? XD We need it for the sample role PM :laughing:

You've seen our suggested fake claims, if you find a better NPC to replace one then suggest it please c:

I'm content with out neutrals and Kaine tho.

Caim as the moose, Beauty as Sarte (since he asks a lot of questions lol), and Kaine Machine as Animal Loving Machine are pef.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Another Android fake claim we can use is Jack Ass. Might be a good idea actually instead of just Yorha people lol

Edit: I actually gave Jack Ass to Nier so now his player will have two machine and two android fake claims. Evens it out lol
 
Another Android fake claim we can use is Jack Ass. Might be a good idea actually instead of just Yorha people lol

Edit: I actually gave Jack Ass to Nier so now his player will have two machine and two android fake claims. Evens it out lol
sounds like a plan, weird thought I just had about flavour claims, if you end up trying to switch things up maybe characters from the stage play could be used? That could be neat.

Anyway if everyone likes the direction the game has been taking then I suggest an update to the sheet is in order, then we can refocus our thoughts.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
sounds like a plan, weird thought I just had about flavour claims, if you end up trying to switch things up maybe characters from the stage play could be used? That could be neat.
Ohh?
Anyway if everyone likes the direction the game has been taking then I suggest an update to the sheet is in order, then we can refocus our thoughts.
Yeah I can look over the sheet, I just need to decide what stuff needs to be changed first lol
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Okay I updated the sheet. Please let me know if we need to change anything else.

One thought I had was that we agreed to make Adam a x shot doc I believe... but I kind of wonder if we need to with his requirement that he can only successfully protect each android once.

with the other scum team and SK plus the vig, there's a chance they will both be successfully protected once early on lol.

Additionally Eve has a counter to Nier's jailkeeping and the town doc, but Nier team doesn't to Adam's doc. However I'm okay with this because we agreed that since Nier team goes first they should have less advantages. Plusss Adam's protection only gets them so far. XD

Also also also

we have a lot of Roleblocking going on in this game

:eyes:

Town based Roleblocks:
- One of Emil's items as a bad item to get.
- Simone RB's if her targets don't listen to her which is a negative utility since all the peeps she directs are town. Works perfectly for her BTW lol.

Neutral based Roleblocks:
- Sleeping Beauty if her question goes through.

Scum based roleblocks:
- Nier is a jailkeeper.

I've maintained that when handling Roleblocks we keep it simple:

If RB's target each other then both are RB'd, if one RB targets another then the targeted RB is RB'D.

However.... next post I'll go over some scenarios LOL.


HOLY FUCK LOL. I just did a fuck ton of scenario Analysis in my post down below only to realize that it's pointless. for 2 reasons.

1. SB target during the day so she can in fact not be RB'd.
2. Simone also targets during the day so her target has the night to decide if they will agree. Thus she can't be RB'd either.

So I'm going to scrap my post below and start over with this in mind.

EDIT: the post has been updated. The post below is based on what I thought about with these changes.
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
RB scenario's

Also for this scenario we will assume that Emil always gives the RB because in cases where he doesn't it doesn't affect the RBing process.

Since Simone and Sleeping Beauty operate during the day they can't be RB'd so that makes things easier LOL. However they both heavily affect the other RBers.

1. Simone targets Emil.
a. If Emil listens:
1. If Simone's target is Nier: Nier is RB'd.
2. If Simone's target is not Nier: Nier jails his target.
a. if that Target is Emil: Emil is RB'd.
b. If that target is not Emil: target is jailed and Emil Rb's his target.
b. If Emil doesn't listen: He is Rb'd.

2. Sleeping Beauty targets Nier.
a. If Nier gets it right: His target is RB'd.
1. If his target is Emil: Emil is RB'd.
2. If his target is not Emil and Emil per Simone's request or his own choice targets Nier: Nier is Rb'd.
b. If Nier gets it wrong: he is RB'd.


3. Emil targets Nier.
a. Nier's target is Emil: Both are RB'd.
b. Nier's target is not Emil: Nier is RB'd.

4. Nier targets Emil.
a. Emil's target is Nier: Both are RB'd.
b. Emil's target is not Nier: Emil is Rb'd.

5. Sleeping Beauty targets Simone.
Nothing happens because Simone has a day action.

6. Sleeping Beauty targets Emil.
a. Emil gets it right: his target is Rb'd.
1. If he targets Nier: Nier is RB'd.
2. If his target is not Nier and Nier targets him: both are RB'd.
3. If Simone targets him and he doesn't listen: he is Rb'd.

b. Emil gets it wrong: He is Rb'd.
 
Last edited:

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
stupid website won't keep my formatting but hopefully this all makes sense guys.

Sleeping Beauty and Simone both being day powes helps a lot with this, but the main thing we should consider if we have too much RB lol.

One proposal with Sleeping Beauty is she does a punishment other than RB if the person gets it wrong, but anything super negative like say vote loss would be preserved as being even more anti town so it'd be harder to fake claim town.

People will 100% know about Simone's power based on how it works, so having her claim she's Starte a town RB with a weird condition might work as a cover, it may not considering we have two townies with RB powers already.

The thing with all the RB is it means we don't really this much protection do we? lol

However... Scum should have an RB since it gives them a chance so Nier should stay a Jail keeper.

Simone's is dependent on her target listening and I feel like most people will listen.

Emil's is one item lol and there's a chance it may never come into play (Speaking of should we make fake items to attach each power too since we have the fancy hat that does nothing? Do we tell him what each item does or should it just be the item listed.

And Sleeping Beauty depends on the questions asked and how they are answered plus she's a Neut so whatever there.

Anyways let me know what you think about the RB question lol
 
stupid website won't keep my formatting but hopefully this all makes sense guys.

Sleeping Beauty and Simone both being day powes helps a lot with this, but the main thing we should consider if we have too much RB lol.

One proposal with Sleeping Beauty is she does a punishment other than RB if the person gets it wrong, but anything super negative like say vote loss would be preserved as being even more anti town so it'd be harder to fake claim town.

People will 100% know about Simone's power based on how it works, so having her claim she's Starte a town RB with a weird condition might work as a cover, it may not considering we have two townies with RB powers already.

The thing with all the RB is it means we don't really this much protection do we? lol

However... Scum should have an RB since it gives them a chance so Nier should stay a Jail keeper.

Simone's is dependent on her target listening and I feel like most people will listen.

Emil's is one item lol and there's a chance it may never come into play (Speaking of should we make fake items to attach each power too since we have the fancy hat that does nothing? Do we tell him what each item does or should it just be the item listed.

And Sleeping Beauty depends on the questions asked and how they are answered plus she's a Neut so whatever there.

Anyways let me know what you think about the RB question lol
There's definitely a lot of possible roleblocks flying around but similarly to you I question whether much of them will be used, the vast majority of players would follow the instruction, I also expect Nier to use jail shots to try and keep him and his partner alive (note: ensure nier can self target). I don't think it can break the game but I'm far from 100% sure.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
There's definitely a lot of possible roleblocks flying around but similarly to you I question whether much of them will be used, the vast majority of players would follow the instruction, I also expect Nier to use jail shots to try and keep him and his partner alive (note: ensure nier can self target). I don't think it can break the game but I'm far from 100% sure.
LOL good point about Nier, I assume we want him to be an x shot? Adam team has a strong man but it's not fair to town lol... mind you, every time he jails himself or Kaine, they are roleblocked so it'd basically weakening them at the same time.

Either way besides Nier who is the most straight forward, I'm pretty sure a lot of RBs won't happen too lol. SB is the only one that has a chance since her player will be trying to achieve her win con but that depends entirely on the question being asked and how a player answers.
If one scum team is eliminated does the other gain the ability to attack every night?
Yes it'd only be fair. Speaking of we'll have to change the scum win cons to reflect that only one team can win lol

Originally wanted it that the scum teams can't kill specific characters based on flavor (Nier can't kill Emil, Adam can't kill Simone) but if one team dies that restriction is removed, but I think that'd be unfair to the scum teams really lol.

we got a lot of protection going around to counter the SK and two scum teams, so having that one would just be annoying lol.

but yeah as soon as one scum team is dead (since it will happen either for scum win or town win), the only can kill every night.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
This is a post reminding me to look back at the design sheet soon, feel like HvV3 should have taught us some good lessons on what does and doesn't work.
Agree with that LOL. I've been thinking a lot about the little robot cult, but the good news there is they aren't a proper cult and are basically more along the lines of illuminati chat so i think we can still get away with them. XD

Main thing I got out of the whole thing is us making sure all factions have a shot at winning for sure. Which i feel like we were doing.
 
Last edited:
Sample starting post for the Cult thread which will be called something like "The Little Robot Cult." We can change it if that makes the flavor too obvious:

Hello \o/ Welcome to the cult thread!

Your humble leader is: Player name.

Now here are some ground rules.

1. Do not talk about the cult in the main thread! \o/
2. If you leader dies, the earliest recruited player that is still alive will become the new one. \o/

Objective: Recruit 4+ members. Then at any point in a day phase if your leader posts the command BECOME AS GODS in the main thread.

If 3 other members post the command BECOME AS GODS in the main thread. If you do this something will happen. \o/
After HvV3 I'm less sure about the 'don't talk about the cult in the main thread' rule, a similar role seemed to make the cult of kosmos very fustrated. I also want to see if there's a way to avoid the 'oops all factions' stuff which happened at end game.

Kaine still is a 1-shot ninja despite both teams now having access to one.

Hope everyone had a good december ect :)
 
Top Bottom